575: The 4 Conversions That Make Marketing Work w/ Sean Doyle

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode we talk to Sean Doyle, CEO of Fitzmartin.

There's a ton of noise out there. Sohow do you get decision makers to pay attention to your brand start a podcastand invite your ideal clients to be guess on your show, learn more atsweetfish media DOTCOM, you're listening to the Beta, be growth,show a potcast dedicated to helping beeto be executives, achiev explosivegrowth, whether you're looking for techniques and strategies or tools andresources. You've come to the right place, I'm James Carburry and I'mJonathan Green. Let's get into the show, welcome back to the BB Groth show weare here today with Sean Doyl. He is the CEO at Fitzmartin and also the CEat Seanmdoyl, dotcom John, how you doing aa wonderful good day. I amexcited to chat with you today. Shn, it is Thanksgiving weak is where you'rerecording this. So I am ready for some Turkey, but also ready for thisconversation. We were talking offline just about a lot of different ideas,but the thing that we're GOINGTA really hone in on today this this idea ofbuilding direct sales models. I think you've got you've, got a lot of greatthings. To add. To this conversation, you've built a framework around thisprincipal that I think is phenomenal, but before we dived into that, can youtell our listeners just a little bit about yourself? What are you up to atFitzmartin and Shanamdoile Dotcom? Oh certainly, thank you. We do two things. We work we two different types ofclients to different sizes, clients, so smaller companies, typically up toabout TN ftes Ma a a million or so in revenue. We work through Shanham Doyledocom, and that is a tool where you can provide written literature shift as abook that's being released in January we have a video product and it's tohelp executives who are in charge of marketing, but they're not trained forthe task. Then Fitz. Martin is the company that I help found twenty sixyears ago and we work with larger companies that have the infrastructureand are looking at ways to improve their sales. Ind MarketingOrganizations or departments and Fitzmartin is a sale S, a marketingconsultancy that does just up. I love it so so sho, like I said in the Introwe're going to be talking about direct sales models, explain to our listeners.Why? This is a topic that you think needs to be talked about more, oh! Well,everybody has a list and my experience is every ce o every business ownerevery salesman has this list of companies and it it's these groups.These organizations, maybe it', even a market segment, that if they could reach them, if theycould get them to buy the product or service that they're selling, it wouldradically change everything. It would bring a new revenue to the company itwould bring in opportunities. It would bring a credibility to to grow anupsell and maybe even if you're, a...

...business owner it's this list ofcompanies that, if you had them this client, you might even have an exitstrategy, might have built a company, that's sustainable and salable. Sothese companies- everybody has that list. I ean for you listening today andimagine right now, wwhat. Would it be worth it that list that you've got yourhead? What would it be worth it to you? If you could reach them, I mean what'sthe number I did this in e rund, the other day with thirteen people and bythe time we went around the room and added up the value of the list. It wasapproaching two billion dollars, wow. It amazing yeah. It's amazing tha, thevalue you could get if you could reach these people use these ARD to reachpeople Oky so clearly it. This needs to be focused. Onbbecause F, if you're ina in a small group of people that are saying that this list adds up to twobillion dollars who wouldn't want to reach everybody on that list, and so Iguess the question becomes now well. How do we actually create thoseconversations? How do we get in front of those people that can be gamechangers for our businesss? That's a great question K W, there's anotherinteresting fact about these lists. Typically, these prospects know thecompany and the company knows the prospect. In fact, if I kinda go backin time, I would tell you a story that began on a February night in twothousand and two, when I received Te, call some bad news, some healthcarenews and everything's fine, I'm still here and in the process of that heavynews. I I reevaluated just about everything in my life. One thing that Ithought through was what I did professionally and at that point I hada thirteen year old company. We were doing good work, but I didn't alwaysknow why I didn't know how to repeat it consistently in an marketing. That'simportant. Most people are frustrated with their their marketing investments.In the past, they've tried an agency. Maybe a second agency didn't work out.They tried some things that worked and then the next things they tried didn'twork and they don't really know why, and if I was honest in two thousand andtwo I wouldn't have known why either so one of the ideas that was presented tome at the time was that there's a way that we as people change the way we dothings behaviorill change. behavial change really is nothing more than thana buying cycle. We would call it a consumer decision journey and I wasintroduced to the book called changing for good, which was written byPrathochka nor cross in Declemente and in it they break down the six stages, achange that all people go through and it sounds pretty typical if you're, amarketor or in business start unaware of something move through contemplatingabout it. Maybe then into planning and inaction and then Solt doserving you're,a customer Wellok Great. That's that's...

...a buying cycle. Most of us have apipeline reportive of some sort yeah, but then th the magic that happened forme was the discovery of the book that there are a nine enabling processes,the fcilitate movement along that buying cycle and and here's Aha, theseprocesses don't work all the way through some processes are effectiveearly stage, for example, something called consciousness raising works whensomeone's moving from unaware to contemplating about buying something,but but then the next step, emotional, erousal or rational reevaluation or theprocesses that move you from contemplating to preparing thepreparation or planning. But there's emotional rousal doesn't help youcreate awareness and awareness doesn't help. You move somebody towardpreparation or action actions when you're thinking about somebody sayinggive me a proposal, help me understand that and then even further, there'smore processes that help helping relationships is one it's a salesdriven, tectic or environmental control, which is more of a marketing driventactic. That only helps when there's a proposal on the table and someone'sdeciding if they're going to sign. So when I discovered this, it gave me theability to break down of the call cycle but, more importantly, a way to auditthe tools that marketing was using or creating and audit the way sales wasbehaving and identify where ther were barriers or more likely. They wereusing the wrong tools at the wrong time. Think about it. What do you think aboutan AD agency? What what do they do? James they're they're getting awarenessyeah exactly which is wonderful and that's an early stage, effective tool,but then that's where agencies typically fail, they're, not thinkingabout later stage cell cycoled needs and that's where we're woul to come inand infect. Our great proof of this was back in two thousand and two right after I got that Phun called outmy healthcare problem. I got another phone call was from my largest clientand it went something like this Shan we're glad to call you here, butwe've got fifteen hundred prospects. We know them. They know us we'd love to dobusiness with them. We've been trying to sell to them and we can't make itwork. Now. We've gone through three other agencies, they've all failed,they're all fired. Would you like the opportunity? Yes? So what we did is we, we said sure howdo you say? NOTOGAARGAS, clent and the result was phenomenal by movingthe processes, creating tools that were creating emotional arousover, rationalreevaluation, private and public commitments. We were able to take thisfifteen hundred stale prospects. Were E.

ALD O get ninety one percent of them totake a phone call Wol. Fifty eight percent of them took meetings. Fortypercent of them accepted and requested proposals and Thec Bank closed threehundred and eighty million dollars worth of lunge and deposit holy cow.It's four weeks, Enplos, it was FN changed my career, the bank, liked ittoo th. So you have outlined nine processes and you say that each processonly works at one of four specific conversion points. So did you guys takethose processes, and then you defined certain activities that that the bankwould do at you know at when when this particular thing happened. So when theyagree to the meeting, then that triggers you know this specific sen ofactions or walkes through kind of what that looks. Like that's a greatquestion and I'd be glad to walk us through it. The the audit that we did.First N Wes litly got a white board and just rode up on the wall. Everythingthat all the other people had done. All the agencies had done. Banks callsalespeople relationship managers, so we looked up the relationship,managers' activities and we integrated. So that was the first thing that wasdifferent from a typical point of view, as we inegrated marketing in sales andthat's often a point of inefficiency, marketing works,independent of sales or salls doesn't think much about marketing's opinionand one way to bring them together. Just marketing in sales alignment is tofocus the conversation not on each other, but to focus the conversation onthe customer and if you can create a common language, so the customer is thecenter of it. Then, when sales says somebody needs to get more excitedabout something. Well, marketing can say: Yeah Whe'Reat, the conversion too,where emotional erousal is important. So now saleson is an agreement withmarketing they're using the same language and even the conversion point we love tosee. I when people say were at conversion too somebody's moving fromcontemplating the planet so now ahead of time. We've got this agreementbecause it's based on science, not on some marketer's opinion or some salesguy's opinion or the highest paid most important person in the room's opinion.Now we've had an agreement that scientifically based that sales,markening management wegin all work together. Yo have one set of languagesso with the bank after we mapped it out. What we realized was was a lot ofinvestment financially and from the sales m point of view and the marketingpoint of view, there was a lot of investment in conversion, one whichistaken o somebody from unaware to contemplating right makes sense Ye. Ithink this is a symptom of tool based...

...thinking, but whoas come to that, maybea little bit later, the second conversion processes centhermor around taking somebody and emotionally getting them excited. Whatwould it look like if, if I could do this, if I bought this product, if Iused this pertular vendor, what would it mean to me as a buyer orthere'sthere's James, maybe you're, irrational Aybe, you're type of buyer?That wants to say you know I coal visualize. What I wouldlike be like to work with you, but I need to know. Am I going to get a twopoint: lift ar we going to be more fichent and my cost going to go down?Give me the rational well, depending on most of the time we see, depending onthe companies we're working with. They may have a bent towards the emotionalerousal Um processes and that's just natural for them, because it's the wayt they think yeah. Well, if you don't provide the rational arguments, thenthere's a large part of your marketplace. That's going to miss theability to move forward or the inberse could be true, you w less. They wereworking for scientists or engineers. You know where they're, it's allrational and all their arguments are rational, nd, their powerpoints. Looklike you know, sheets, that excel numbers and gratios. Well, your byermight need some emotional understanding of what it would look like think aboutthis o. You think about the last time you bought something where maybe therewas two decision makers and this works on consumer. Maybe you were buying acar or Mayh. You were buying something for Your Business and if I ask you tobuy something and I've, given you a rational argument, but there's somebodyelse in the business that doesn't think that way. What happens you presentthese rational arguments and ay turn it down? Yeah they don't get it ylet's sayyou are more motionawy Drithan and Youe this understanding an each safety, soyou're looking for you've got all the rational arguments you need, but Idon't know emotionally if I'm safe, to take it to my peers- and this soundssuper soft and Kinda gushy. But it's the way we make decisions. It's just the way human beings t work,yeah and so are those messages, the the emotional rousal and the the rationalreevaluation of the. What? If envisioning does that get delivered viaemail? How are you delivering those messages? We have a cheesheep that Iwould be glad for your listeners to have access to. They can reach out to me directly orthrough you and I'd be glad to send it to them. Some tools do tend to lend themselvestowards the process. For example, video can be very good at creating emotionalrousal right vers, maybe a calculator, it's more of a rational reevaluationtool. So there are some tendencies, but...

...but this really leads James to anotherbig problem. Most marketing fails because it's toool based so yes, videosare important, but you have to know what the video's purpose is sobehavioral sciencees. The video's purpose is to create emotional herousalGod or the calculator's purpose is to support a rational reevaluation processfor someone to go huthat's interesting. That makes sense. I can see thisrationally hen most marketing feils when it's tool based and if you'd look at all the tools. I madea list, I don't know, there's sixty items on there and some are pretty Ighlevele and some are pretty granular. But U know if you think about all thetypes of of marketing tools: Ore's, inbound marketing tools, it outboundmarketing tools, ers philanthropic efforts as government relations,there's channel development, there's human resources, employee culture.There ' I mean, there's all kinds of sets of tools and when we solve a marketing problem,even I tend to start with Oh yeah w what if we did a prfver or what? Whathave we direct mail t slowdown? Yea? That's not the tool'snot going to solve the problem identifying where the barrier is wi'llsolve the problem. anthen. You can create the tool, got I okay, and so so.We've we've talked about the conversion. One process consciousness, raisingawareness. You said that the other agencies in your story about the bank.They already invested a ton there, so so the conversion to processes where itkind of fell off. Creating this emotional arousal, the the Wa fenvisioning talk to us about the the third conversion process. Great I'd be glad to planning. So ifyou think about planning, that's when you're you've done your researchcontemplating typically is a lot o online internet privacy in Youve got in animinity of thirdparty reviews, whether it's trip advisor or it would be to be aopportunity where you're watching a Webex or something but you've got acertain amount of animinity. That's where there's emotional mationalreevaluation processes work to your point and then there's a there's. A Aninteresting tool that focuses on are processd that foes aroun commitment andprivate and then public commitment so think about again. If you go back tothe last time, you and maybe some other people worked jointly to make adecision. If I'm a salesman- and I asked You James- would you put mein front of your CEO, O on't, the three of us get together and talk about this was the answer? No, Why y? Why would you answer no toomuch risk for you? You don't know you don't know what myou know, I'm trying to get your money...

...right? U, so why would I take apersonal risk of putting you in front of my peers, whether it's the board,the directors or leaving somebody who works with me n within a corporatestructure? You're just not willing to do that, but you've got to make acommitment if somebody WHO's not willing to make a commitment. Forexample, this behavioral science comes out of t the behavioral science Umchanges around things like smoking, a d and drinking and losing weight. So youknow, if you don't make that private commitment to those changes, then youcan't move forward yebut. The other step would be the public commitment, sothe public commitment, then Youve put a little more risk out there. That's whenyou're willing to tell somebody I'm going to lose ten pounds byThanksgiving, not possible so th, very intentional,very smart marketers create sols with sales working withsales, yet to offerways for a buyer, to first make a private commitment, its low risk andthen later a public commitment. The private commitment might look like alot of different things. It might be subscription to an email that a pat,that's, a private commitment, might be a one on one meeting James. If I comeover to you to your office and meet with you and show you this, and thatand I'll do a little ri schedule. If you'll give me some numbers, I canbuild this financial return model, but you know just be between you and meJames N, en, if you decide you want to move forward, we can take this to theboard or to the decision breasted, a decision making team n so Marketimargeting. That's smart understands that, as you get closer to a soldanserving or exchange relationship that it's time to start working very closelywith sales earlier stage, processes tend to be marketing driven later stage,processes tend to be more sells driven, but market has got to support them.You've got four processes that that are the conversion for processes, and wedon't have a lot of time here, left Shon, but you talk about helpingrelationships, positive substitution, encountering environmental control andthen rewards for positive behavior. Can you quickly kind of give us a synopsisof these conversion for processes an as we kind o put a bow on these nineprocesses at the four different conversion points, the bank that closedthree hundred and eighty million dollars worth of deals? They got muchmore intention intentional about understanding these processes.Environmental Control was critical. What that means is, if you keep tryingto get someone to change their behavior, but nothing physically around themchanges it's too easy to continue to the behavior. If I'm trying to quitdrinking and I'm still sitting in a bar, that tendency is going to be for me tohave another drink, so environmental control teaches us that marketing andsales coald work together together to...

...change the environment, whether it's asurround of their product or a site visit or a planttour or a neutral thirdparty location, so n thisthat's, when it doesmake sense to take someone to dinner or golf or a weekend a way or a retreat. Those that's a good example of howmarketing and cells should work together. Our positive substitution ismore hey, instead of buying from that vendor you're buying. Now, if youbought from us, here's what it would look like and we'll give you an a you,get x, Y Z from that person. So from this person, where can they get from usyou're going to get that you know Dti y and then rewords for Thehouse, anBhehator? It's just what we all DID RAISING CHILDREN YEP! You did somethinggood! You got a little reward to get a skitl in Mor House, so the're they're,very basic processes, but all of them are very integrated as sales andmarketing and that's where we're close in deals: hats where market anddelivers Roi and Tha's, where marketing starts coming to the boardroom table,and the board understands that marketing is a real, serious businessfunction. No, this has been. This has been incredibly helpful for me, showin.I know that our listeners are Gong to get a ton of value out of this as well.What's the best way, if someone listening to this, they want to getaccess uh to those talking points that you had referenced earlier, or theyjust want to stay connected with, with what you've got going on. How do theyconnect stay connected with you after this interview? One of the other bigchanges in my life after two thousand and two was I decided to give anybodywho wants help help for free, so I am glad to share the sales of marketingframework or we I'm growing out with a book inJanuary, and that would be more than more than glad to get that book to you,rich made at Sean Sea n at Fitzmartin, Fiatz Mar Tin, OCOM Lova I' be glad tohelp ossome Shaun will think you so much for your time. Today. Again thishas been fantastics so really appreciatit. I enjoyed it goodquestions appreciate you to ensure that you never miss anepisode of the be to B. Grosth show subscribe to the show in Itunes, whereyour favorite podcast player this garantees, that every episode will getdelivered directly to your device. If you'd like to connect with be to beexecutives from all over the world make sure to join our private facebookcommunity. There are some incredible conversations happening inside thisgroup to join visit B. TA B growth show Dotcom, slash, FB. Thank you so muchfor listening until next time.

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