B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 1696 · 1 month ago

5 Steps to a World-Class Team with Dr. Jon Finn

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Benji talks to Dr. Jon Finn, Director, and Founder of Tougher Minds and Author of The Habit Mechanic.

Jon provides a breakdown of how we can use leadership science to generate better teamwork within our organizations. Jon provides 5 steps to team building that you can walk away from this episode and implement immediately.

Hey be to be growth listeners. We want to hear from you. In fact, we will pay you for it. Just head over to be tob growth podcom and complete a short survey about the show to enter for a chance to win two hundred and fifty dollars. Plus. The first fifty participants will receive twenty five dollars as our way of saying thank you so much one more time. That's be tob growth podcom, letter B number two letter be growth podcom. One entry per person must be an active listener of the show to enter, and look forward to hearing from you, conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is be tob growth. Welcome back to be to be growth. This is your host, Benjie Block, and today I am honored to be joined by Dr John Finn. He is the author of a new book called the habit mechanic and he's the director and founder of tougher minds, which is an award winning consultancy. John, thank you for being with us today on B tob growth hibends. You will thank you for having me. Very exciting to be we love the work you're doing. I can say personally I love it. I know we've had a couple conversations now. So the habit mechanic. Congratulations on the book. Let's start here. For those that are are going to be new to the work that you've done and all of the May and the sweat and, I'm sure, just the effort that has gone into this project. Tell us a little bit about the habit mechanic and the genesis of this book. Yeah, well, I've been working on the habit mechanic for over twenty years. Believe it or not. I've got three psychology related degrees, cuding a PhD, and there's work from my undergraduate degree in this book as some of the foundational ideas. And I spotted quite early on in my career that the traditional approaches I was being taught to help people to be their best just didn't seem to be that effective. They were putting helping people to understand what they're needed to do to do better and not so great actually helping them to change their behavior. So I became really passionate about creating a new, more powerful approach that was based on cutting edge neuro science and behavioral science, quite new sciences, in some way to actually help people to do better. So and whether an individual, your your a leader, whether you're a team I wanted to create something that everybody could use to do better. And although we use these ideas the highest level of elite sport and the top businesses on the planet, you know we use them through a range of other areas, all the way through to school and pair and teachers, because we want to create something that you could use throughout your journey through life, not just at work or in sport, but actually in life. Well, someone that has taken the time to read this, I think it's extremely impactful and why I invited you on the show today really is to take one particular chapter from the book that I found that would be very insightful, I think, to our audience of leaders, specifically in the marketing space, leaders that, man, we know right we're facing all sorts of challenges and you mentioned in the book that you believe this may be the most challenging time ever for leaders. Let's identify some of those key factors that you see and make leaderships so complex and challenging today, John. Yeah, so I think we have to step back and think about the modern world, and the way to describe the modern world is the vouka world, the fulatile and certain complex, ambiguous world which, if people didn't believe in it, became very real to...

...her in the last few years with the COVID pandemic. Right and not just really means there's one constant in the world and that constantly is change, and the change you getting faster and faster and faster. So long gone other days of the factory model of work in where you learned your trade and your your technical skills when you were, as it maybe, a teenager and you didn't have to learn too much for the rest of your career. Now things are changing all the time. The competences we need to manage ourselves but also to do our job, the technical competies for a job, the tech by using this changing all the time. So there's only one constant the world. That constant is change. Change creates problems, problems to solve problems as opportunities, problems that create big challenges. And, as human beings are, best way of solving problems is to work in teams. So almost apiens are unique, clear excellent at working cleverly in teams, and there are a few rules you need to get right to create good teamwork. The first thing we need to get right is each individual member the team needs to get their brain working properly. Right they can think clearly and they can solve problems at an individual level. But then the beauty of a team is that we can then start to communicate and collaborate and essentially get our all all our brains working together on the same problems. And in order to do that we need to feel valued and respected and trust to other people we're working with, and also helps our brain to work well. And the third thing that we need to do is we need to feel excited and emotionally bought into the team's mission. So so, in short, there's only one constant in the world, that's change. Change creates a lots of problems. We're going to be able to deal with those problems much better if we work in a team. And if we want to do that well, we need to get everybody's brains working well, so that people need to be looking after themselves, but we need to create trust and respect and people need to feel valid, because that helps people's brains to work well. Well, otherwise they'll be threat detection all the time. And then we need to get people oriented towards an exciting mission that there can get emotionally invested in, so that's teams can help us in the VUCA world. Here's the problem. Hybrid work has made it much more difficult to do those things. So the hybrid world and the pandemic has made it much more difficult to get your brain working properly. Obviously we've had a thesy an illness that's been going round. We talked about the covid brain, etc. But a lot of people have developed an awful lot of bad habits in the pandemic. Hybrid work creates an other challenges well, where you're not going to the same physical space anymore. So it makes it much more difficult to actually look after your brain. We have being bombarded in the modern world with the attention economy, with stresses, with challenges, and it's just more difficult to get your own brain working. Problem. It's awesome, not difficult to build the trust and the respect and the feeling that people care about you when you're communicating remotely, because the technology we use in our brain to help us to read each other's emotions, they're called mirror and your arms and Mir on your owns just don't work as well when you're not in the same room with people. You know you can look at someone, you can send how they're feeling, because when you look at someone you read their expressions and their fit and their body language, etc. That's why emails are always starting off within the night with a negative term, and so you have to go the extra mile to early mat...

...your emails and because, as but hybrid work makes it more difficult to communicate and collaborate, because it challenges some of the foundational things we need to get right as a team. So to bring it all together, I say that as a leader there are three core challenges that the modern world brings. One is it's hard of a teams to work together, for all the reasons I wanted out. Two is leadings harder because people have traditionally been promoted to leadership positions because they're good at getting into a room and influencing other people's behavior, because leadership just about influence. When you can't do that and you don't see your team every day anymore in the same way, that's more difficult to do. And connected to those first two ideas is that we are just now going to be much more dependent on team members self managing. MMM, because team is not going to be as good at influence in their behavior. Neither is a leader. So we need to get better at self managing. But arguably self management is more difficult than I would before. So that's whas complex and challenging. Yep, do a great job of explaining that, because I totally agree. And as in your you have so many marketing leaders that are listening to this right now and they're going you talk about fast, you talk about problems and yeah, we'll raise our hands and go YEP. That's the world we're living in. Hybrid work, all the complexity that that adds. So when you're going, man, we want to create this world class team, there's so many ways that that can potentially hit a wall right potentially break apart. You have some people that aren't fully bought in or they haven't done the work internally, like you were talking about, to really bring their whole self. So many roads we can go down. John. What I want to do is I want to spend our time together giving away some steps. You five steps to kind of like a world class team. But where I want to start us in this discussion is actually rewinding in your story back to two thousand and six, because you were working in the back room staff of an English professional soccer team right and you become fascinated by the performance and the leadership transitions that were kind of happening within the team, so much so actually to the point where you had mentioned some of the degrees that you got, but you went on to pursue your PhD to kind of learn more about the theory behind some of the successes some of the setbacks that you were observing and seeing firsthand. Tell me a little bit about how that season of your life you equally informs your view on leadership. Yeah, and this actually happened over to season. So the first season we won the league by a record amount of points by spending less money than anyone ever spent in professional soccer in the UK to gain those points. So we spent fifty percent less on player wages and the team that came second team that came third. So we were massively punching above our way and one of the really interesting things that happened in that season was our manager got putched by another team, so he left. One of the coaches then was promoted to the map to become the manager and what he did is he promoted the two most senior players, who were coming towards the end of their careers, to become his assistant coaches. And what immediately happened? There was that barrier, often invisible barry, between the senior leaders, the players in this example, just disappeared because they had the players we're essentially leading them. So that trust and that respect and people feeling valued. It just set that really good psychological safety in the dressing room when our amazing season and lots of little different stories within. But then this the season afterwards, when we got promoted, we lost some of our senior leaders, not the assistant manager but some other one, because they went to drop down lead to...

...get there more money or whatever. Other some retired. And then we, because we didn't have a very big budget, we ended up getting a lot of young players and we got a player and learn from one of the biggest teams in the UK, or Man City, and this player pulled up in the car park with a car that was probably worth more than some of the players contracts for the season and he walked into the dressing room and he had a Hoodie on and instead of having a draw string in the Hoodie. He had a big thick goal chain. So you saw this felt way a minute, this is not quite right. And but because he was playing, you know, playing for Man City, rich famous club, all the young players bravitated towards him and this this young guy got sent off after twenty minutes in his first game. So just absolutely disaster. What it what that taught me was that leadership isn't about the title or the position. It's about influence, and everybody has influence. And it also taught me that we weren't being deliberate enough in terms of bringing leaders into our environment or bringing really positive influences our environment or developing leaders. Yeah, we were great developing the technical and tactical skills, but we weren't great developing leaders, and I think that that still is the case. Leadership is almost the untapped results, the we haven't yet learned how to look. I think the tough of mind says in the how a mechanic approach has but because we went up into our leadership science, so we've kind of driving that forwards, but but then not really struck a cold with me that we could do much more, and it really took me on that journey to want it to Lowell. How do we do it? How do we look lead isn't not only help people to be at that best individually, but how do we help them tell all this to be at that best? What's the scientific approach to doing that? Yep, scientific approach is an interesting way of saying that right, because I don't know that we naturally equate the way we think of leadership with a scientific approach, which is obviously something your advocate advocating for heavily. In this book you talk about a useful case study that I've that story is so interesting, John, so thank you for going into that. One of the things that I think we can be guilty of as leaders is having these just traditional ways right where we think about we've always thought about leadership in this way. So this is how they did it back then, that's how we're doing it now, this is how I'll do it forever, and sort of the mentality. But you would say, hey, there's some outdated old ways of thinking about leadership that we need to move past or we need to update. Right, explain to me what some of those old ways are that you you see that we kind of often adopt in our leadership. Yeah, and to Calviat, they says, are all very well intended thing things, people trying to help other people do better, but we haven't known about it's only in the last twenty, twenty five years we've had the technology to look inside the human brain with because we've got functional MRI s cams. A lot of the pros we're using to help leaders are over a hundred years old and for me broadly, the big problem with traditional leadership of training. It's all about knowledge and knowing what to do. And here's what great leaders do. Is All here's a top ten list and we got tools like psychimetric psychiometrics measure what you can do today against some of the psychimetricst we user over a hundred years old. Some modern neuroscientists say they're about as accurate as astronomy and how they're not all that helpful. And I use these tools and that's how I've learned that they're not find them particularly helpful. I think they've got this help me to starting a conversation, but ultimately leaderships about habits and if and we can all build better habits, and because the world's...

...moving so quickly. The way that we're leading today, although it may be really good, it's not necessarily going to be good enough in the in six months time or six months after that. So as leaders we need to keep building and refining better habits, but also we need to recognize that every warning in our team has some leadership responsibility and we've got to empower them to learn how to build better leadership habits, not just know what good leaders do, but actually build better habits. So that's where I took the approach is about breaking it down into these tiny little habits, of which you know it in our approach, in the cheek hope mechanic approach and in the book. It's probably one thousand eight hundred ninety little different habits that we talked about. HMM, fascinating stuff. Let's go down that road a little bit more before we break down these these five stages and helping build these world class teams. Because you say leadership is about habits. Obviously the book habit mechanic. So I think we needed to find that term real quick, like when you say become a habit mechanic, what would use define that as? John? Yeah, so I think about in three, three ways. One is understanding how your brain works and how other people's brain work. It oft to be a neuroscientists just a gist level, and we have a few models we explain in the book we've created to help people to understand that. Then having a having ways to analyze your habits, because, if you understand, I a brain which you understand most of what you're doing. Most of the time, at least nineteen percent is mindless, automated behavior, from how you think to what you do. We have a tiny bit of consciousness and nuts it. So we've got to be able to understand our habits. which habits are helping us to be healthy, happin at our best, which habits are getting in the way? And then, thirdly, we have to be able to start building more new habits. We call them super habbits. So build more new Super Habits, get rid of your destructive habits, but not so you can just do it for the next few days, all weeks, so you can build them in a sustainable when. To do that you need to use behavioral science. So that's how I would think of a hobbit mechanic, and the chief of a mechanic by extension is and someone who understands only how to de off for themselves, but also how to help others to do it and create a culture that makes it really easy for others to build more helpful, sustainable new habits. And that's the foundation of wide call a purposeful development organization. And whether when we live in a world where the only constantly is change, it's essential that everyone is working on themselves all the time to keep getting a little bit better and a little bit better. Man. I mean you think about the leaders that are listening to this and the need for us to be able to help other people in their development. Such a timely conversation. In so what I want to do, because one thing to spot issues right and leadership development. It's a whole other thing to look at what you're talking about, neuroscience, behavioral science and Create Training that's actually going to help us address like leaders, help them take their next right step. So you've tried different approaches. Eventually you're landing on what was called the five stage team power model, and we're going to take some time here over the next few minutes to talk about these five stages and in greater detail. But let's start with just a high level. John, would you walk a through these five stages and what you call the five stage team power model? Yeah, so the metaphor here is you're climbing up a mountain with your team. Top of the mountain is the mission success. It's the big goals you're working towards and the five stages are kind of placed getting you up the mountain. That's up the mountain essentially, at so right the bottom, before you even set off on your journey. Stage one is what we call me power conditioning. This is about getting everyone...

...doing their best to be their best, and me power conditioning. Doing more of that is the first step to becoming a habit mechanic. So we need everyone to be working themselves, to get their brains working properly, to have that mindset that they want to keep making little adjustments and little, little improvements, because then they're going to be healthier, they're going to be happier, they're going to be much better able to help the team to succeed. Stage two, then, is before we actually set off on our journey up the mountain. Stage too is community base camp where we get together and we discuss, well, what is the mission and what are the big girls and what are the immediate priorities and how do those priorities distill down into everyone's roles and responsibilities? And we do that. The chief have a mechanic in the group dees thatigner really empowering where they gets everyone to buy into it. And then the third stage is called group climbing support. This is the daily grind of working and doing the work to solve the problems and help the team move forwards. This is how we communicate with each other, verbally, nonverbally's how we support each other as we're climbing up the mountain. The fourth stage, then, is what we call camp fire discussions. This is where we periodically stop and we coach and support each other so we know that the skills that we have to day to help the team be excellent and not necessarily the skills we're going to need tomorrow or in six month times. Everyone needs to keep growing and developing and we need to have we need to be supporting each other, to help each other to build new habits. And the fifth stage is what we call the group climbing review. This is where we periodically stop and say right, there were are. That was our mission last month or two months ago, however long you want to put your reflection gaps in for with that. That was our mission. Is it still the case? And they're still our big goals and they're still our priorities? Is everyone one fulfilling their roles and responsibilities? And when you're not doing that, the opposite is people are talking negatively behind each other's backs, you know, and there's not that trust as not that safety in the group, etc. So it's just a simple framework that we can start to think about. What we need to do is a team to be as hobast and like everything you know, programs and the hobbit mechanic book. Nothing's descriptive. This works really well. I we use this an out team, but you can you can tell this, you can tweak it, you're going to just but essentially have a way of having a really intelligent conversation about team performance in a way that you can keep Quimbato and you can keep assessing. So I want to walk back through. You know, we're put the leaders that are listening. You're already wearing your leadership pat in a sense, so you're listening through that Lens, that perspective. One thing I find so smart about this model is the first two you're not even really moving yet. Right. One is like, as a leader, as a chief habit mechanic, I'm in a place where I'm also empowering my team to where they are becoming habit mechanics. They're thinking and taking ownership for themselves. But it's like it's discussion, it's empowerment to this communal piece. We're looking at the vision. What I mean, it's it's again, it's a lot of conversation. It's about establishing where we're headed. Right. So, if you're the leader in in, let's say, a team, and you're trying to make this stage one me power conditioning happen, John talked to me about some of the conversations you're having, some of the ways that you're actively empowering your team to set them up for success, to set them up to become the habit mechanic. Yeah, well, I think if you do a...

...map of your team on me power conditioning, when end is people are absolutely doing their best to be at their best. The other end of the continuum is, when I say a map, I just I mean a cut, a continuum. When end is yeah, they're absolutely doing me power conditioning. When is they're not. They're just passive to the VOCA world and they're being controlled by Netflix and FACEBOOK, etc. Everyone's on a somewhere different on the continuum, but everyone can can do a little bit better. So it's good to know where people are at. Just back of a we would set a fag pack it on the in the UK, which means cigarette. So you just we say that backing mapking kind of thing. Just map it out. Yeah, yeah, see where people are. But if people don't believe they can change, that's going to be the first barrier. So that's why we always start our programs and that's why the First Section of the having me kind of books all about how your brain works and the fact you can learn, and learning just superpower. So we have to prime that mindset. And then the way that the way that I think about helping people to do better in this is complex world. It's a bit like teaching them to drive. So they might have the mindset that they can learn how to drive, but then you've got to given the knowledge in the skills. So you help them to normally understand more about themselves, but show them how to do that in tellige of where develop help them to develop their having mechanic intelligence so they can analyze their habits and then got the skills to get better at building better sleep habits or stress management or productivity habits, whatever it is. It's, I literally learning to drive. You're not going to do that with a Webinar or one workshop, because you don't learn to drive by that right, you don't. You can't drive after the first lesson. You know this Theorem, whealism, whether accelerators, etc. So it's like you got to teach them to drive. And then one hat as a leader is you're a bit like the driving instructor. But another how you have to wear is your like the Department for Transport. You've got to set the Highway Code. What rules? What be how do we use the behavior or science to actually help our people to do better? So we have our nine action factor model. You know. Just a really simple example from that is, if I want my people to be doing more me power conditioning, I've got to be getting them to check, checking with themselves on a daily basis, or at least the weekly basis, just doing a simplexticized like how well did I do my best to be at my best to day. Ten would mean I was perfect. One would mean I failed. Care what can I do a little bit differently? Today? We caught a tea, a tiny power and action tell me to do a bit better today. Okay, so I'm going to go for a five minute walk at lunch time to make it easier to be a bit more productive this afternoon. And then three years I've got to say why? Why would doing that be helpful for me? Well, as just as I said, I'll be more productive of finished work earlier, etc. So there are a whole range of things we can do as a leader to help out people do better. But the starting point is you got to get that mindset open that we can all change, we can all learn and in fact it's essential. And me, as the leader, look, I'm doing this, I'm working on myself. I'm the most experienced person in the room. And then we've got to start to empower our people with knowledge and skills, and that's why we were at the habit mechanic book, because this isn't a book with one idea in it. This is a manual for life. It's the tool kit for success, it's everything. It's like a second me twenty is to learn how to write it, because it's everything to write it, rather, because everything I've learned over twenties is in that book. But then, as a leady, you've got to think about how do we create the Highway Code to actually make it as easy as possible to help my people keep working themselves and keep moving forwards, and that's where the chief having mechanic peace comes in. So...

...let me ask you for up question on that, just really practically, because I loved I love the example of even just you know, we're about implementation here at BB growth, so we want to give organizational leaders and opportunity. You're bringing up this idea of okay, even if it's just priming them by having them think through. What did they show up at their best yesterday? Is that? Is that something that you've seen implemented in like a morning meeting setting? Because one thing we talked about at the beginning right, we're all in remote work, which means it's harder to create these habits, are these rituals for your team? So what are something like? What's a cadence that that would happen at? Is it an all together community thing? Are you just saying hey, this might be good for you to try. Like, how would you actually implement something like that on a team? Yeah, so periodically. One example would be at I'll be asking everyone to check in across these five areas. We're going to step back and we're going to reflect on how well are we doing in these five areas. So there are some self assessments in Mechanic Book Guide lead US through how to do this and I'll just read out one of one of those. So how do you assess people? On the me pal conditioning, everyone could rate themselves out of ten or they could read the team out of ten when a question, like us them and like everyone in our team, deliberately chooses to bring their best self to work every day so they can be their best and help the team fulfill its potential. So if they thought everybody did that all the time, you get to give the team at ten. They thought no one ever did that, they give them a one. Then on the Community Base Camp System, at like the team has a clear strategy. That makes everyone feel empowered and helps a team perform well and achieve its mission. Again, everyone can give a score. So we're empowering everyone to have us a here and it doesn't mattery. They're not quite sure about all what's me power conditioning yet, because we're going to keep checking in with this and as we do it we're going to learn more about it. A step in three would be everyone in our team deliberately chooses to support and bring the best out in each other to help the team achieve its mission. Again, everyone gets gives a score out of ten statement, for we coach and support each other to develop better habits so that every team member can make a more positive contribution to our success. Again, everyone gives a score. And then, finally, collectively, we periodically review our individual and team performance and create a plan of action to help our team improve. So this is what I call intelligence, self watching. We can do that at individual level and we can do it at a team level. So I know that lots of businesses ask their people to be more strategic and more reflective, but without good knowledge and skills about how to do that, you're going to problem end up in that strategy meeting talking about the football game that was on last night and not actually deliberately reflecting on the team. So, as a leader and as a team it's good to have that five step model that you can keep going back to and you can keep selfassessing on, and the more you do that, the more intelligent you would get about your team. And then a world where team work is harder, we need everybody to be more intelligent about the team. We need everyone in the team to understand on those five stages but also in just done that they have a job to positively contribute to age stage and I think that's a really empowering way of doing them. Does that? Do you think that will help people? Benja? Oh, absolutely, I think one thing I'm thinking as you're even reading out those questions, and I love the idea of intelligent self watching and doing that at a level for an organization, like we do things like as an organization,...

...or thinking, okay, let's let's review how how bought in people are, and we might send out a survey and get get people's feedback there. But intelligent self watching to me is slightly different in that you're really taking an assessment, of learning, of how much you're leaning, I would say, leaning into life right, leaning into your work, versus being very passive. And when you do that periodically, maybe you choose to take a cadence of monthly or quarterly, but there's some sort of thing that you're tracking over time. You can see your health just like you would with a doctor visit or anything else. So you can see are we really thriving or an in? You set benchmarks over time, which I think again for intelligence, self watching is necessary and I think personally every leader should be doing some sort of this. And then you're just implementing this in your team. So I think it's fantastic. Let me ask you this. Of the five stages, we just went a bit more in detail on me power conditioning and but of the five of where do you feel like leaders are most likely to get hung up or is there a one particular stage you feel like we struggle to really implement or focus on? I think the most challenging stages are me power conditioning, because I think everything you just talked about, the leaning into life that's about better self management, and self managements harder than ever. So yeah, the first question on the staff server for me is how well are you doing your best to be at your best, because without that nothing we do it where it's going to be helpful. So me power conditioning is challenging hence why we wrote the book, because we want to make it easier for people to do it well and get more more control over their lives and get better at managing themselves. And I think the hybrid will makes up more difficult. You know, the storage here of a of a pandemic people that leaving the house for a week, starting work at eleven o'clock at night, working all the way through the night. You know. So that's more difficult. And I think also the second bit is group climbing support, because we don't see each other other every day. So get in the collaboration is much more difficult. Building the safety, building the trust is much more difficult to do. So we have to work harder to do it. I actually did my first in person training session for HSBC, you are one of the thing, the biggest bank in the world, few weeks ago and it's so different, you know, to be in the room with people and yeah, I've been talking about the Marinail Rosenow for two years and the AAH this right, it's so different. So Group, I'm support is much more difficult. So if we but if we empower people to get better at managing themselves, that's going to make it less difficult and we really heightened the need to work harder, supporting each other and to become some language we haven't used yet, but it's one of a part of our leadership model is action communicator, which hopefully does what it says on the ten you know, it's about communicating in a way that helps other people to tell positive action. There's a whole list of habits that people can developed to do that better. So we need to be helping everybody in the team to become better action communicators, because communicating just become more difficult. So I think that the saling ones. For me. Let's go a little bit just further down that road before we wrap up here on that one specifically, what I mean, yeah, the way we communicate and we help people lean into action. That's going to be a big deal. But especially as we're becoming used to this hybrid version of work or this remote version of work, what are other ways as leaders that you would encourage us, John, to be actively empowering our teams? Is there anything that we can even start putting into our our ritual, our routine of work that all help us better empower our teams for collaboration and and for teamwork. Yes, we can use insights from self its termination theory, okay, and this is an important part of of...

...the book and we talk about in a leadership capacity, in the cultural architect part of our leadership model, and there's an entire self assessment there. But the pullet, the pillars of selfdetermination are we don't tell people what to do. We always ask first and we you know, we get their opinion and even if our opinion is different, and as long as we rationalize, you know why we're maybe doing things differently, that's going to be helpful. So it might take a little bit longer to do it that way, but it's going to save your time in the long run, rationalizing your decision, which I just mentioned there in the second part of that. And I think just just one one really interesting insights just catched a lot of a lot of a lot of selfdetermination and a practical ways as a leader and a too, I used to use more advancedly developed in the book, but drawing something called performance profiling. So you ask your direct reports, for example, to write down or what are their roles and responsibilities and then to rate themselves out on time and then where you think they're out of ten. That's a great conversation starter because already you haven't said anything. It's not yours what they think. So they're empowered to think they're in power to give their opinion. So just just scratches the surface. They're Benji, but it's it's really about being more selfdetermining. You can always be purely selfdetermining, but it's not that you are either selfdetermining or coercid. As a continuum. It's just about being mindful to try to stay away from the coercive end of the continuum, which is much harder to do when we're communicating. Yeah, of the technology try. HMM, fascinating stuff. Man, we do to say we can't do what? Twenty plus years of work just as in a forty minute conversation everybody. So we're doing a great job here distilling some of this framework and some of this information and John, thank you for being along for the ride today and for doing this with us. Want to ask you kind of one question as we close, as we kind of are are working to apply this framework. We leave we're going to take action on today's episode. What would you tell us to do right away? Like. I know we brought up several sort of practical things we can try, but is there a first thing you would invite us to do to make sure that we're doing any or maybe it's even a mindset ship, but what would you tell us like, Hey, walk away from this episode with this in mind, with this as an action item. Course I'd say buy the book. Bends you, but its probably don't leave that for me. I'll say that at the end. From what you want, from what we've covered in the podcast, I'd say just think about the self reflection statements I talked through. Yeah, just why do you think your team's up? So with your leave the ship pattern? Who where do you think people are up? And then, if you feel comfortable with those questions, take them to the team. You'd ask them slightly differently. Well, their statements as I read them out. That's the starting point. It's the way I see life is that it's the journey that has ups and downs, but if we do more intelligence self watching, we're going to get more control over those ups and those downs, and that's what they haven't mechanic approach is all about, and the more we do intelligence self watching, the more we learn about ourselves. The more we doing tell self watching with the team, the more the team learns about itself and the more we understand ourselves, the better able we are to be at our best and to manage our journey through life controlling what we can control. So don't worry that the themes and the concepts in the five stage model, for example, might feel a little bit for and now it because the more you go there and look at them and think...

...about them in that way, the team in that way, the more powerful they will become and the more you will embed that language and that way of thinking about yourself. So I think starting with the questions is a really, really good starting point. Right down the answers, as been you were saying, track them, track them over a few months, see why you're getting it's not about being perfect in all the areas. It's just about recognizing where you are then picking one area to work and coming back to it month after and say, right, how we improve the IRIA. Yeah, so that's how I would stop in J can't be a good leader without being an intelligent self watcher and then also empowering others to do the same. If you want to be a great leader. That is a great place to start. And again, like when we're tracking this, we're tracking because then we can see where we've been and where we're going. And I know on this show, with the people that we interview, in the people that listen, we love tracking data in our business. We love bottom lines, but sometimes a guy to also be thinking about this at a human level, like where are we at? And so I love today's conversation. John. I really appreciate your insight and I'll give a plug here at the end of this episode to just say go by the habit mechanic. Do It on Amazon. This is is not a book where you just sit down and you read it once through and then yeah, you're done. It's it's the type of book that you go back to as a resource, as a manual for life, and it's years and years of work and study in things that are often outside of our purview as leaders. Right we're busy in business in our marketing departments, but we can tap into the science and it can make us a better leader, and so want to encourage go grab the book on Amazon. John, thank you for being with us today on be tob growth. For those that want to stay connected with you. What's the best way for people to do that? Yes, I'm on Linkedin. To connect with me on Linkedin, don't to Jones, fin J and I flight to villain checks our website, which is tough of minds that could at UK. There's lots of free resources on that, and then if you want to email me directly, you can do that. Actually, a John Finn, which is Jo n Fi Doblen, ought to for minds that could at UK or just contact us via the website. Yeah, happy to take any further questions if you have them. John, thanks for joining us on beatov growth. Thank you, Benjie. It's been an absolute pleasure and I hope this really helps people to start taking that first step to imbedding a bit more leadership science into helping the teams to thrive and succeed in the challenging world. To all of our listeners that are listening this episode right now, I say thank you for tuning in today. If this is your first time listening and you've yet to subscribe, do that on whatever podcast platform you're on. Can connect with me as well over on Linkedin. I'm talking about business marketing in life and would love to hear from you. Thanks for listening today. Keep doing worked that matters, and we'll be back real soon with another episode. We're always excited to have conversations with leaders on the front lines of marketing. If there's a marketing director or a chief marketing officer that you think we need to have on the show, reach out. Email me, Benjie dot block at Sweet Fish Mediacom. I look forward to hearing from you.

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