B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 2062 · 11 months ago

5 Reasons Why Marketing Ops Should Be One of Your First Hires

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Dan Sanchez talks to V P of Marketing at Motivosity, Logan Mallory, about why you should consider marketing ops as one of your first hires for you B2B company.

They discuss:

  1. How it leads to revenue faster
  2. How it creates less rework
  3. What becomes more effective
  4. How it benefits the whole team
  5. And who else it might matter to


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Yeah, welcome back to GDP Growth. I'm dan Sanchez with Sweet fish Media and today I'm joined by Logan Mallory, who is the VP of marketing at motive ah city Logan. How you doing today dan, I'm awesome. Everything is good here in Utah sure appreciate being able to hang out with you for a little bit. Absolutely for the audience. We're talking today about five reasons why marketing up should be one of your first hires and I wanted to talk to Logan about it specifically because he's gone through the pain of not having that person before and has recently in the process of getting that person on the team and there's a few reasons we talked to our pre interview and all the different things we could go over in this call that that stood out to me is I've been in that pain before and I wanted to flesh out some of the reasons behind why that is why you would actually want to make this person your first higher. Um I realized even in my past, that's been one of my first hires before and I kind of caught me off guard to even think about it that way because I think it's just it's uncommon, unfortunately uncommon. So I wanted to talk to marketers today about that topic. How did this even occur to you to begin with before we jump into the five reasons? How did this become a topic for you? Yeah, for sure. So I've been in marketing for quite a while and always have been in this digital world. Right? And so I think in traditional marketing and certain it's past it wasn't as important. And I've worked with marketing ops teams that are more of a burden or an obstacle. They're kind of gatekeepers rather than partners. And I know how long that makes the work take, right. The work takes longer. It doesn't move as fast and it's painful. And then when you've worked with a really great marketing ops team or a really great marketing ops leader you get the opposite experience. And so kind of having the contrast of those throughout my career throughout different roles and throughout my career I learned that a great partner there um makes everything better. And so um I knew that the next time I was building a team from scratch or or growing a team that that was going to be one of the very first things that I that I focused on. Well say I've outside his sweet fish. There's only one marketing team I belt before and it was it ended up being a marketing office person I hired. That was before I even understood what marketing ops was. I just I like almost called the I. T. Part two because I didn't know what to call it, I was in a beat, I was working in higher education and I didn't have the vocabulary for it. I'm like well we're like we're running all the websites practically running all the technology, the crm I'm even running the sales enablement, like all the call center text, I'm like we're just I. T. Part two. Uh And so I think but it becomes it's it's hard to set up, it takes a ton of time to get everything done right. Um So I ended up becoming my first hire now I'm working with a team of four and it's not somebody on my team and I'm filling it I think dan in the you know when when I first started my career we kind of had a marketing automation, you know...

...specialists or marketing automation managers and um they were kind of seen as their own entity but as the industry has matured and you know your your hubspot or your marcato or your party for instance has has become like the center of the marketing tech stack that really enabled those automation people to move into that ops role and they're fantastic at it. So I do think it has changed over the last few years where used to start off in marketing automation and now that almost always falls under ops as it should as it should. Yeah. I mean it started with email marketing, right. And then those email marketing became drip sequences and those drips sequences and statements in it and became more sophisticated drip sequences. And then you started triggering text messages and landing pages and you started doing weird things with the options around your website and customizing. And before you know it you had these very sophisticated campaigns that was way more than email. Way more than marking the automation. It was like a whole system and into it was very just well I. T. Part to what intricate intricate for sure. Technology heavy but not quite email. Not quite I. P. Stuff you know I. P. Addresses and all this stuff I. T. Has to deal with you know dealing with vectors, you're dealing with process maps and all that kind of data databases of people and where they're at in the customer journey and what they've experienced and where they came from the works. It's a it's a never ending list for that crew. So let's dive into some of the reasons why this is the right person to hire and the benefits of it. You mentioned one was just getting better attribution. How is it give you better attribution for your marketing and why is that important? Yeah, for sure. So any any good marketer is running multiple campaigns right? If you're only if you're only running one type of medium or one tool and your that simplified then you are missing out on a lot of opportunities for growth and expansion. But the more that you put into the system and the larger your ecosystem is the more confusing the attribution gets right. And I think in marketing we sometimes over we've made that way more complex. We talk about, you know, you you curved attribution and w curve attribution or first or last touch. And sometimes I think we just make that really complex. The reality is you need to know that if you put a dollar in, where was where was the person? And what were they experiencing when they raised their hand? Right. If you can boil it down to that, then you can make some really wise program decisions and a good marketing ops team. They can, you know, their intricate in how they manage forms on websites. They think about the tracking and the attribution from 3rd Party traffic. Um They, you know, they think about how that carries into the systems, in which fields it populates inside of the automation or the uh hubspot or marcato. And so keeping track of that and knowing what's coming from where really does allow you to make better decisions. You can you can...

...look back and say we put an X. It led to Y. And therefore we're going to put Z extra dollars into that program. Or maybe it's not dollars, maybe its time and resources. It's it's humans focus and even knowing that you're spending that in the right place makes all the difference. I love how, like attribution is a really complex topic. In fact, we're gonna do a deep dive in the future just on attribution alone because it's worth, I can spend a whole month unpacking just that one topic I find that a marketing office person is probably even better. Not even there's like the top level marketing attribution right? Of like assessing different channels and how they grew all up to our Oh I but I do find that it's even technical to try to figure it out within a small ecosystem, right? Adwords alone is a lot of set up and tracking just to make sure like even within just the Adwords ecosystem of just cost per lead is set up correctly so that you can measure how well Adwords is just even a generating leads, let alone revenue. Right? There's a lot of technical setup and just setting up all the different channels and making sure you can actually even tagged them correctly right? You have things being piped in and things being piped out and sometimes you want the data in one place and not in another. But but when a good marketing ops team member and partner can focus on that and make it clear where the traffic is coming from and think about google. Like you mentioned, the intensity of individual platforms, think about your google analytics set up. If you are making decisions based on that and things are tagged incorrectly or events are firing at the wrong time or your goals aren't set up right, then you're trying to make decisions with bad data and it's not just about the data, it's about the thought process and the customer journey. But if you don't have somebody paying attention to that that's skilled and talented, then you are going to make the wrong investments. Eventually it kind of leads into the second point you gave us. So if you hire a marketing ops person really early, you have to do less rework. What are some of the rework you would typically have to do if you didn't hire that person earlier? Yeah, I think, I think when you are in an organization and you were trying to be scrappy and most companies don't hire someone in marketing ops right away, they'll hire somebody to create content. They'll hire somebody to run adwords. Maybe you've got a web developer depending on your setup. But when you when you don't have somebody from a marketing from a marketing office perspective, Everyone's kind of hacking things together. There's this scene and I talk about this story a lot in a different setting, but have you ever seen Apollo 13 Dan. Of course. So remember in Apollo 13 where the astronauts are in space and this Houston we have a problem. And then the engineers, I can't remember if they were in florida Houston, but the engineers at Nasa walk into the room and they go, all right, we got to figure out how to get this square into...

...this circle and this is what we can do it with. And then they dump out the box of supplies onto the table. It's a great scene, right? And I always talk about that from like the kind of people I want to hire, people who are scrappy people who look around the room and figure out what we have and make it work. And there's something I don't know honourable about that, being able to figure out like how to solve problems without every single tool or piece of marketing technology. But that almost always means that there's inefficiencies, there's gaps, there's things that take longer than they should there leads they get lost. And so when I as a kind of high level marketing leader come in and try to piece things together, I'm losing efficiency all over the place. I don't have time to a b test every part of the nurture. I don't have time to make sure we're not losing leads through a different, through a different lead source. And so a marketing ops person, if they can come in and build that intentionally, it means they don't have to rebuild what I or someone else hacked together. And so it really does. It sets you off on a better foot earlier rather than having to catch up. And that ketchup can take months or years, right. If you bring somebody on and the infrastructure is all in place, they could spend quarters learning what's they're coming up with a new plan and implementing it rather than if you would've just had them start, they could have done it right for you the first time, kind of like trading the speed and scale now for later. Right, Well you might get ahead by three months now, but that's gonna cost you a year and a half a rework later because the ship is going to be bigger and it's harder to turn a big ship, right? So it's kind of depends on where you want to go whenever you start up, has to assess that differently. You know, our scale up, you have to kind of assess like, I don't know, do we need that accelerated growth now or can we afford to slow it down a little bit so they can grow faster later? Yeah, for sure. And it's it's so easy to think like oh we'll solve that later and then you don't write like you just you just leave it there and it sits in the corner and um you continue to to hack your way through it. So a good marketing ops leader and partner gets things set up right the first time and then from there on out your your running at full speed rather than limping along. Gosh, I feel like I've been on both sides, I've done things right the first time I've been in other situations where I've literally implemented one system and then someone took over implemented a different system and then I had three systems to migrate from them and then it took to all my little over two years in order to get it done. That was a lot of work to get it done right. It's brutal, isn't it? All the systems that were like, we have these three half implemented systems and this one well and there's an emotional burden associated with that, right? Like when you have to do manual work because your systems are bad. That's a really frustrating hour or hour and a half of...

...your day. You don't feel great doing that work because it's not your best work, it's not efficient and so you're not excited about it and why should you? So there's an emotional tax associated with, with those with with the re work that needs to be done and the work waiting to be done until the re work is finished. So that's talking about rework which kind of leads into the next point of everything is just more effective when you start right from the beginning. And it's kind of like of course you don't have to do the rework so it's more effective. But what are some of the efficiencies you gain when it's all set up right from the beginning? I think I think where I would focus on the most here is something that marketers need to do a better job of, we need to be more revenue focused. So many of us are focused on how many pieces of content we created in a quarter. The next event that we put on. Um you know, we focus on these high level, I don't want to say vanity metrics but these high level metrics that are good and we need them but they don't necessarily drive the revenue that the sales team is trying to hit. And so one thing that I I hope we all start to do better as marketing leaders is to coordinate and collaborate with sales more than we have so often. That's a relationship like filled with friction and anxiety and frustration. And we all know that like death cycle where sales doesn't perform, they blame marketing. Marketing says, well sales, you didn't do anything with what we sent you. Right. And so I think the most, the place where a marketing ops team can make marketers the most efficient is in tracking revenue. Right? And so one of the things that a wonderful marketing ops leader that I worked with helped me establish was basically a revenue forecast. And so we would look historically at what our leads and opportunities would produce, how much pipeline or closed one revenue they would produce. We'd track that over time and then we would apply it to our our forecasted incoming leads for the next month. So we take historical revenue and historical pipeline. We'd apply it to next month's lead forecast and we would come up with a pipeline forecast. So instead of just saying yes, we're going to run these programs and we expect this many leads. We would go through and would literally say we expect X leads from adwords and why leads from paid social and z leads from this webinar and based off of those different lead sources, we could plan on a B or C dollars worth of pipeline. And so what that did was it built insane amounts of confidence from our sales counterparts. When we said this is how much revenue we think we can get you to. We knew that within, you know, 90, accuracy, that's what we would get them to. And that's the perfect example of how we're marketing. Ops Leader can...

...make you more efficient from the very get go. Hi dan Sanchez here with a quick break from this episode, sponsor Vidyard. If you haven't started using personal video yet to enhance your marketing campaigns, you're missing out. Having the ability to quickly capture video and record my computer screen or both helps me not only create marketing assets faster, it makes them way more personable. I use personal videos in social media, email, blast landing pages and even on our website, Vidyard makes it easy to record host in bed and share videos to more deeply engaged with your ideal buyer's prospects have told me repeatedly that they are blown away every time they get one for me. So sign up for Vidyard free today by going to Vidyard dot com slash GDP growth and just like you guys, the team at Vidyard can't keep up with all these promo codes on podcasts, so they are making signing up as easy as possible. So no promo code needed. Just go to Vidyard dot com slash GDP growth. So start using vidyard completely free and as a bonus, get their 2021 B two B video trans guide. It sounds like the dream right. Being able to predict within that kind of accuracy. Yeah, easy to say so hard to accomplish. But I think the magic behind the scenes And I think one thing about that is oftentimes when we're less technical, we just try to look at things through one lens. We say things like I'm going to bring in and I'm making numbers up. I'm going to bring in 200 leads this month for the sales team. What marketing ops can really help us to do is to be more granular, Right? And to look at things that are more at a tighter focus. So rather than focusing on our program in general, what will each lead source do or what will a campaign provide? And when we break things down more granular, Then we don't have to work on an average level. Right? We don't have to say our average lead. Our average conversion rate is 25%. We can say our average conversion rate for adwords is 40. Our average conversion rate for a webinar is five. Right? And so we can be more granular and therefore more accurate. And I love that when a marketing, when a when a mops partner gets that, it is just like clockwork. You can you can really work some magic in any sized organization. one thing that you mentioned to me that really stood out to me because it's something I'm like, you know what? That's right. But I never really thought about this dynamic of a good marketing ops person as you said it brings maturity to your whole team. Yeah. So in college programs You can't keep up with marketing, right? So when you have these college professors that have been that have been in academia for 20 years and they're teaching about marketing, they haven't been in it recently enough to teach about attribution or google...

...analytics or U. T. M. S. Right? Like like or a C. I. D. Coats right? Like they haven't been in it enough to teach about those things. And so entry level marketing employees come in and they have no clue what U. T. M. Under source. Underscore source equals is or underscore campaign equals is like they don't know what that is. And so a marketing ops partner that is that is seasoned, right? And I'm talking about a leader not not someone who's on their first gig in their first six months in it, but a marketing leader like that can teach the rest of your team how to think about marketing from an analytics and a digital and a reporting stand perspective. So I actually have a great his name is Reicher Rikers on my team here at motive osce Itty and we've got a little bit of a younger team here which is fantastic. They bring energy and new ideas and new perspectives. I had Reicher take an entire section of our of our all hands meeting and teach about you tms basically from one oh one because I knew they weren't getting it in school. I could tell that they weren't learning about it in their previous roles. But Ryker knows that stuff back and forth left and right, right. And so he helped me mature the team and where before they weren't thinking about attribution and tags and keeping track of their spend. Now we make sure things go through Rikers filter and they understand why we're doing that. It's not just an extra box, they see the value. So we have all leveled up at our organization for having record on our team. So it's essentially training your team and more of the technical side of marketing because I mean, even if they are teaching good marketing, which I'd say most colleges aren't even really teaching the good basics of mark, not at all. How to write the poppy, how to find your right audience, how to how to write good value propositions that's like mentioned value proposition, right. Uh so they're not doing that, but then they're definitely not covering the technical side which is like you teams highly technical and how it captures those and how it loads into the google analytics and all that kind of stuff. It almost essentially kind of builds a technical prowess of the team, which is highly important for both the strategic and tactical execution of any modern marketing. Right? Um, you say it goes beyond technical or is it mostly like a technical maturity that it brings? I would say there's another side of that. Oftentimes they help provide a better perspective of realities. Sometimes we as marketers, we dream a lot and we think this would be fun and what if we did this and because of their personality, marketing office person is probably a little bit more analytical, a little bit more realistic, they're aware of constraints. And so they provide some balance to a marketing team instead of everybody kind of, you know, wanting to buy giant planking boards, which I bought a giant plank aboard the other day, but instead of everyone wanted to just have fun and make things awesome. They help you think about like real constraints,...

...which is important. And so, um I think that balance absolutely matures a team and we think about that in different ways throughout the organization broadly, we talk about diversity and inclusion and the marketing ops person within the marketing team provides some diversity of thought. So I hope that's not an insensitive way to frame that. I don't I don't mean that that solves any, you know, diversity and inclusion solutions. But having that person within the microcosm of a marketing team make sure that you are thinking more than just the creative branding, bright colour side of marketing makes so much sense. One of the reasons why I like my marketing ops person in my last job was because he actually came from a hard science background. He was a chemist and had done like post grad work in chemistry. So he's like highly analytical and he had some programming experience, he's highly technical, didn't know anything about marketing, which was fine. I taught him all the basics and he knew and marketing took over adwords and then are and Crm and they are all our websites help me code a lot of fun things around the website. You know, it's funny you mentioned that depth e brought on the technical analytical side and the stuff he could do with Excel and just getting us to think at a different level and analytically was unbelievable. Yeah. I kind of feel you when you talk about like different level of thinking. Yeah, they do. I it's funny you say that one of the organizations I worked for a few years ago um are the gentleman who ran our marketing ops team had studied architecture in his uh in his for his his undergraduate degree. So he he studied architecture, did an internship and said, now this isn't really for me, and uh and and jumped into marketing operations and he was incredible. The guy, the guy was a wizard and could do things in in uh in minutes, that would take average teams months. So he was he was great to work with. So maybe that's kind of a tip for anybody listening to this. If you want to like bringing someone entry, looked at one of the hard skills that could be engineering could be the hard sciences, anybody who's really good at like physics or chemistry, those guys are just amazing. Um But architecture, that's one, I didn't think that's a different one, work out really well, have a different way of thinking that would probably apply really well to uh to marketing. Ops of course, most markets don't have a background in education, They didn't study marketing is their major motion. A lot of people are marketing anyway. We jump over from some other world dan. One other thing that frankly just came to me, I hadn't really thought about it in our preparation discussions, but one other thing that marketing Ops leaders do is they are an excellent external partner, right, meaning no one is better equipped to go talk to your sales operations counterparts. Right? And oftentimes if there's some technical technical knowledge that's needed on the product side, your marketing Ops person can speak that language and so they do mature the team...

...in that they provide this kind of technical resource that other parts of the entity can connect into. Whereas love creative directors, love marketing managers like myself, but we're not always technical and therefore that limits how we can interact with other people. Think about if your Web deV team is hosted by the is housed within the engineering department like Marketing Ops person can be way more efficient as a translator and as a I'm going to say an ambassador than your average marketing employee makes sense. They certainly interface better than with all the other technical people around the work. And I'd say, yeah, even your thin op team or whatever depending on what you're doing there all okay to speak each other's languages a lot more easily. Exactly. Exactly. One of the last things you mentioned around why you should hire a marketing ops person pretty early was that it makes you look a lot better in front of your executive team. Gosh, that's such a selfish answer, isn't it? My goodness. Um listening to that back, I'm like that's that seems so selfish. But let me explain that one, I'm about to go into a market with the executive team tomorrow. I said on our executive team here at motor velocity once a month or once a time period, each department does a deep dive, right? And it's a little bit like a quarterly business review where we say, here's the things that were amazing. Here's the things that are broken, here's what we're working on. And I spent a full day with Reicher whose who runs my marketing ops team side by side. And we went through reports and we went through graphs and charts and analytics. We did some quantitative and then we did some qualitative analysis where we dug into specific lead sources. We dug into specific parts of the sales cycle. We dug into our technology and our tech stack and we spent that time so that we'd be ready for this meeting. And that doesn't sound like anything special. But Riker gave me a level of understanding that I don't and can't have on my own right with all the things that I'm managing budget, hiring, strategy, speaking engagements. I can't, I can't be an expert on everything, but my marketing ops partner helps me to do that and helps me to like understand what's important and what's noise. So when I go into that executive meeting, I feel ultra confident, right? And I feel confident because I can get up and speak to it. And I know that if for some reason I can't, my partner can go a mile deep and a mile wide if he needs to and in front of that executive team. So for me, I'm not alone, right? And and again, that diversity of thought, that diversity of experience, that technical knowledge when I'm when I'm...

...in that meeting, I know that I can count on him and have been able to on my on my marketing operations counterparts in the past, I can count on them and therefore we as a team look polished and prepared and knowledgeable because we are so maybe maybe the reason that when you asked me that question, which we had talked about, maybe the reason that felt uncomfortable is because I said, it makes me look good in front of the executive team. And maybe the better way to say that is makes the marketing team look better in front of the exact it's selfish. Yes, it does make you individually look good because you're the leader of the team. And so yeah, there there's a lot of benefits to that. But by looking, making the team in yourself look good in front of the executive team, it gives you more ability to get buy in on other things that could help the team needs more help with this needs budget for this. The things they've been bugging you about, well now you're going to be able to go get the resources that they've been asking you for, you're gonna be able to hire that person which is a new job creation, right? So yes, it's selfish, but it's also, I mean if you're a good leader, it's it's for the team. Sure. Yes, I had to do look good yourself to. It's not necessarily Yeah, of course. That definitely helps one of balancing yourself with the team. One of the Yeah, and we've got an awesome team over here. It's uh and not not a sales pitch but motive velocity is all about peer to peer recognition. And so we do our, we do a really good, I got my things matter shirt today on, in fact we do a pretty good job of making sure everyone is appreciated and recognized and I hope, I hope my team feels that they're awesome. One of one of the things that just kind of triggered for me as you were talking about that, is that a good marketing operations individual or team lead also ought to have a really unbiased perspective, right? Maybe they add some neutrality to your conversation. Whereas you know, instead of looking at everything as though it's perfect and shiny and exactly working exactly how it should. Marketing operations can shed the accuracy light on that, right and help determine what's right or what's wrong. In fact, I don't know if I should say this on the podcast, but I'm going to like, we're going into this executive meeting with a couple of things that haven't gone perfect. Like there are some things that aren't polished, they're not great and we're going in about those relatively blatantly. It's certainly not a doomsday issue, but I think we're going in there trying to be honest and say here's where we just killed it and here's a couple things where we clearly didn't do what we needed to do. So I appreciate that balanced perspective and like being held accountable and and looking at things the right way. Just not the way that makes us look good. I do like how marketing ops mindset is a little bit more data heavy, Right? It's like marketing is the balance between the art and the science. I had one way I'm gonna, I'm gonna go towards the art side because I think it's in the creative that winds, But ultimately I like to have it all informed by good data. And it's nice to have that other other person that pokes holes in your...

...art and your thinking and your project. Especially your projections and how successful you think something might be right. A good personality to have on the team. Yeah. You and I are speaking the same language on that one. So is there anything else our audience should know about hiring that person? Maybe if you're hiring that first person, where would you find that person? What level would you hire? Are you looking for a marketing ops director as a first hire or a marketing ops specialist? Yeah. So what's it like? Think about, think about what a marketing ops specialist is. Right. Do you have enough experience that? Are you there interning or do you have enough experience that you can that you can actually contribute? So certainly that's a circumstantial one damn. Like if you've got all the budget in the world and all the flexibility, then go hire the most seasoned person you can find. For me, I'm a huge user of linked in. And so of course I posted the role and um, and you know, had had people applying to it and I also went out and I found people that I that I liked and thought could be good. And I really tapped my network to see who would be the most valuable asset in the organization or in the, in the community. You know, I think one of the things Covid was kind of striking up and when we made this current or excuse me, it was, it was kind of in the middle of it when we made the higher here at motor velocity. What I would say you do is you think about your circumstances and then find the person who has the experience to fill that out. Do you want to be a marcato shop? Do you want to be a hubspot shop? Is your sales office counterpart strong? What's your executive team is feeling towards or understanding of marketing operations? I think there's a lot that goes into it. You're probably not getting what you need if someone has 1-2 years of total experience, right? Like they need more depth than that if they're going to be your operations leader. Um And and so again, that's probably a pretty soft answer there, but I would recommend you really think about what your circumstances allow. Absolutely. Well lets me know that I probably don't want to intern setting up my hope spot account. Probably somebody with 4 to 5 years experience at least. Right, Who was maybe done it at least once. You might not be a good place, a bad place to start spending on your budget. Right. Of course. Exactly. The budget, the more better you can hire. One thing that I've noticed again on linked in the operations community is getting louder and bigger. There's um, there's groups on, on linkedin where you see them pretty consistently talking about what they're up against and um, they're, I think they're connecting more and, um, communicating jobs to each other. And so it's definitely becoming more of a tight knit community as the, as the profession matures like this didn't exist a decade ago, right? Like this wasn't a thing in this format. And so...

...as, as the profession has a longer tenure as there's more senior leaders in the role, the communities are formalizing and if I were, if I were making a higher like this, I would want to be involved and listening to those communities and making sure that whoever I was bringing on was, you know, well respected within those groups. Trying to think of like if I were hiring a marketing person, I'd probably do this would be to be growth. But even if I didn't have a marketing facing organization like Sweet fish, I'd probably start my own marketing podcast and just interviewed them all and then ask you want a job? All right. Do you want to do you want to work here? Exactly? How is your current job? It's a good not so good. It's not good enough man. Almost like pre interviews. Right. Yeah. I like the way you think I like the way you think we kind of use the podcast for us. It's a way to kind of get to know anybody and everybody and that's how we roll. Yeah, we all we all like to be heard. So is there anything else the audience should know about hiring a marketing Ops person early that you think would be helpful? Um I the only thing that I would say is to add a little bit of counterbalance, meaning I've seen that work successfully and I know the value of that, your organization's needs will be different. Maybe you don't have a brand established at all and or maybe you don't have a single ounce of content. Right? If you bring on a marketing Ops person and you don't have any ads to run or any content to promote or any social presence, then the marketing ops person can't operate an empty pipeline. Right? So you should think about your skill set. I'm a very demand focused individual. And so when I get into an organization, I immediately think, how can I fill these pipes? If you don't have full pipes, then the marketing ops person will be twiddling their thumbs for a while. And so when we say they are the first person, we maybe we mean there the second or the third person, right? But if you're hiring a marketing, if your if your marketing operations role Is 30 headcount in, you're making the wrong choice. So not the first person, but one of the first people, you won't hire the mansion or a really good content marketer first or something like that. You got it on top of already having a q earlier good sales cycle and that's going, you have product market fit and you're scaling now. Exactly. You got it, yep, that's a good clarification. So I had that in my head, but I'm like, I'm going to the audience knows now. Yeah, absolutely Logan, thank you so much for joining me on the show today, where can people go to learn more about you and metadata? Sorry, not metadata, motive velocity, metadata sounds like a nice company too. So I'm huge on spending time on linkedin, I love spending that time there, I'm really easy to find under Logan. Mallory motive. Ah City is a wonderful company. We focus on making...

...people happier at work, we focus on peer to peer recognition and helping managers be better leaders. If you're trying to make your culture great or if you're trying to figure out how to connect your teams in a post Covid world where they're not in the office every day, spend a couple minutes with us and we'll show you some great solutions and it's motive. Ah city dot com but again, find find me on linkedin and reach out and I'll get you in the right place. Fantastic. Again, thanks for joining me on GDP growth. Thanks dan, appreciate you at Sweet Fish. We're on a mission to create the most helpful content on the internet for every job function and industry on the planet for the B two B marketing industry. This show is how we're executing on that mission. If you know a marketing leader, that would be an awesome guest for this podcast. Shoot me a text message. Don't call me because I don't answer unknown numbers, but text me at 4074 and I know 33 to 8. Just shoot me their name may be a link to their linkedin profile and I'd love to check them out to see if we can get them on the show. Excite Yeah.

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