B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 2062 · 3 months ago

5 Reasons Why Marketing Ops Should Be One of Your First Hires

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Dan Sanchez talks to V P of Marketing at Motivosity, Logan Mallory, about why you should consider marketing ops as one of your first hires for you B2B company.

They discuss:

  1. How it leads to revenue faster
  2. How it creates less rework
  3. What becomes more effective
  4. How it benefits the whole team
  5. And who else it might matter to


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Yeah, welcome back to GDP Growth. I'm danSanchez with Sweet fish Media and today I'm joined by Logan Mallory, who is theVP of marketing at motive ah city Logan. How you doing today dan, I'm awesome.Everything is good here in Utah sure appreciate being able to hang out withyou for a little bit. Absolutely for the audience. We're talking today aboutfive reasons why marketing up should be one of your first hires and I wanted totalk to Logan about it specifically because he's gone through the pain ofnot having that person before and has recently in the process of getting thatperson on the team and there's a few reasons we talked to our pre interviewand all the different things we could go over in this call that that stoodout to me is I've been in that pain before and I wanted to flesh out someof the reasons behind why that is why you would actually want to make thisperson your first higher. Um I realized even in my past, that's been one of myfirst hires before and I kind of caught me off guard to even think about itthat way because I think it's just it's uncommon, unfortunately uncommon. So Iwanted to talk to marketers today about that topic. How did this even occur toyou to begin with before we jump into the five reasons? How did this become atopic for you? Yeah, for sure. So I've been in marketing for quite a while andalways have been in this digital world. Right? And so I think in traditionalmarketing and certain it's past it wasn't as important. And I've workedwith marketing ops teams that are more of a burden or an obstacle. They'rekind of gatekeepers rather than partners. And I know how long thatmakes the work take, right. The work takes longer. It doesn't move as fastand it's painful. And then when you've worked with a really great marketingops team or a really great marketing ops leader you get the oppositeexperience. And so kind of having the contrast of those throughout my careerthroughout different roles and throughout my career I learned that agreat partner there um makes everything...

...better. And so um I knew that the nexttime I was building a team from scratch or or growing a team that that wasgoing to be one of the very first things that I that I focused on. Wellsay I've outside his sweet fish. There's only one marketing team I beltbefore and it was it ended up being a marketing office person I hired. Thatwas before I even understood what marketing ops was. I just I like almostcalled the I. T. Part two because I didn't know what to call it, I was in abeat, I was working in higher education and I didn't have the vocabulary for it.I'm like well we're like we're running all the websites practically runningall the technology, the crm I'm even running the sales enablement, like allthe call center text, I'm like we're just I. T. Part two. Uh And so I thinkbut it becomes it's it's hard to set up, it takes a ton of time to geteverything done right. Um So I ended up becoming my first hire now I'm workingwith a team of four and it's not somebody on my team and I'm filling itI think dan in the you know when when I first started my career we kind of hada marketing automation, you know specialists or marketing automationmanagers and um they were kind of seen as their own entity but as the industryhas matured and you know your your hubspot or your marcato or your partyfor instance has has become like the center of the marketing tech stack thatreally enabled those automation people to move into that ops role and they'refantastic at it. So I do think it has changed over the last few years whereused to start off in marketing automation and now that almost alwaysfalls under ops as it should as it should. Yeah. I mean it started withemail marketing, right. And then those email marketing became drip sequencesand those drips sequences and statements in it and became moresophisticated drip sequences. And then you started triggering text messagesand landing pages and you started doing weird things with the options aroundyour website and customizing. And before you know it you had these verysophisticated campaigns that was way more than email. Way more than markingthe automation. It was like a whole...

...system and into it was very just well I.T. Part to what intricate intricate for sure. Technology heavy but not quiteemail. Not quite I. P. Stuff you know I. P. Addresses and all this stuff I. T.Has to deal with you know dealing with vectors, you're dealing with processmaps and all that kind of data databases of people and where they'reat in the customer journey and what they've experienced and where they camefrom the works. It's a it's a never ending list for that crew. So let'sdive into some of the reasons why this is the right person to hire and thebenefits of it. You mentioned one was just getting better attribution. How isit give you better attribution for your marketing and why is that important?Yeah, for sure. So any any good marketer is running multiple campaignsright? If you're only if you're only running one type of medium or one tooland your that simplified then you are missing out on a lot of opportunitiesfor growth and expansion. But the more that you put into the system and thelarger your ecosystem is the more confusing the attribution gets right.And I think in marketing we sometimes over we've made that way more complex.We talk about, you know, you you curved attribution and w curve attribution orfirst or last touch. And sometimes I think we just make that really complex.The reality is you need to know that if you put a dollar in, where was wherewas the person? And what were they experiencing when they raised theirhand? Right. If you can boil it down to that, then you can make some reallywise program decisions and a good marketing ops team. They can, you know,their intricate in how they manage forms on websites. They think about thetracking and the attribution from 3rd Party traffic. Um They, you know, theythink about how that carries into the systems, in which fields it populatesinside of the automation or the uh hubspot or marcato. And so keepingtrack of that and knowing what's coming from where really does allow you tomake better decisions. You can you can...

...look back and say we put an X. It ledto Y. And therefore we're going to put Z extra dollars into that program. Ormaybe it's not dollars, maybe its time and resources. It's it's humans focusand even knowing that you're spending that in the right place makes all thedifference. I love how, like attribution is a really complex topic.In fact, we're gonna do a deep dive in the future just on attribution alonebecause it's worth, I can spend a whole month unpacking just that one topic Ifind that a marketing office person is probably even better. Not even there'slike the top level marketing attribution right? Of like assessingdifferent channels and how they grew all up to our Oh I but I do find thatit's even technical to try to figure it out within a small ecosystem, right?Adwords alone is a lot of set up and tracking just to make sure like evenwithin just the Adwords ecosystem of just cost per lead is set up correctlyso that you can measure how well Adwords is just even a generating leads,let alone revenue. Right? There's a lot of technical setup and just setting upall the different channels and making sure you can actually even tagged themcorrectly right? You have things being piped in and things being piped out andsometimes you want the data in one place and not in another. But but whena good marketing ops team member and partner can focus on that and make itclear where the traffic is coming from and think about google. Like youmentioned, the intensity of individual platforms, think about your googleanalytics set up. If you are making decisions based on that and things aretagged incorrectly or events are firing at the wrong time or your goals aren'tset up right, then you're trying to make decisions with bad data and it'snot just about the data, it's about the thought process and the customerjourney. But if you don't have somebody paying attention to that that's skilledand talented, then you are going to make the wrong investments. Eventuallyit kind of leads into the second point...

...you gave us. So if you hire a marketingops person really early, you have to do less rework. What are some of therework you would typically have to do if you didn't hire that person earlier?Yeah, I think, I think when you are in an organization and you were trying tobe scrappy and most companies don't hire someone in marketing ops rightaway, they'll hire somebody to create content. They'll hire somebody to runadwords. Maybe you've got a web developer depending on your setup. Butwhen you when you don't have somebody from a marketing from a marketingoffice perspective, Everyone's kind of hacking things together. There's thisscene and I talk about this story a lot in a different setting, but have youever seen Apollo 13 Dan. Of course. So remember in Apollo 13 where theastronauts are in space and this Houston we have a problem. And then theengineers, I can't remember if they were in florida Houston, but theengineers at Nasa walk into the room and they go, all right, we got tofigure out how to get this square into this circle and this is what we can doit with. And then they dump out the box of supplies onto the table. It's agreat scene, right? And I always talk about that from like the kind of peopleI want to hire, people who are scrappy people who look around the room andfigure out what we have and make it work. And there's something I don'tknow honourable about that, being able to figure out like how to solveproblems without every single tool or piece of marketing technology. But thatalmost always means that there's inefficiencies, there's gaps, there'sthings that take longer than they should there leads they get lost. Andso when I as a kind of high level marketing leader come in and try topiece things together, I'm losing efficiency all over the place. I don'thave time to a b test every part of the nurture. I don't have time to make surewe're not losing leads through a different, through a different leadsource. And so a marketing ops person, if they can come in and build thatintentionally, it means they don't have...

...to rebuild what I or someone elsehacked together. And so it really does. It sets you off on a better footearlier rather than having to catch up. And that ketchup can take months oryears, right. If you bring somebody on and the infrastructure is all in place,they could spend quarters learning what's they're coming up with a newplan and implementing it rather than if you would've just had them start, theycould have done it right for you the first time, kind of like trading thespeed and scale now for later. Right, Well you might get ahead by threemonths now, but that's gonna cost you a year and a half a rework later becausethe ship is going to be bigger and it's harder to turn a big ship, right? Soit's kind of depends on where you want to go whenever you start up, has toassess that differently. You know, our scale up, you have to kind of assesslike, I don't know, do we need that accelerated growth now or can we affordto slow it down a little bit so they can grow faster later? Yeah, for sure.And it's it's so easy to think like oh we'll solve that later and then youdon't write like you just you just leave it there and it sits in thecorner and um you continue to to hack your way through it. So a goodmarketing ops leader and partner gets things set up right the first time andthen from there on out your your running at full speed rather thanlimping along. Gosh, I feel like I've been on both sides, I've done thingsright the first time I've been in other situations where I've literallyimplemented one system and then someone took over implemented a differentsystem and then I had three systems to migrate from them and then it took toall my little over two years in order to get it done. That was a lot of workto get it done right. It's brutal, isn't it? All the systems that werelike, we have these three half implemented systems and this one welland there's an emotional burden associated with that, right? Like whenyou have to do manual work because your systems are bad. That's a reallyfrustrating hour or hour and a half of...

...your day. You don't feel great doingthat work because it's not your best work, it's not efficient and so you'renot excited about it and why should you? So there's an emotional tax associatedwith, with those with with the re work that needs to be done and the workwaiting to be done until the re work is finished. So that's talking aboutrework which kind of leads into the next point of everything is just moreeffective when you start right from the beginning. And it's kind of like ofcourse you don't have to do the rework so it's more effective. But what aresome of the efficiencies you gain when it's all set up right from thebeginning? I think I think where I would focus on the most here issomething that marketers need to do a better job of, we need to be morerevenue focused. So many of us are focused on how many pieces of contentwe created in a quarter. The next event that we put on. Um you know, we focuson these high level, I don't want to say vanity metrics but these high levelmetrics that are good and we need them but they don't necessarily drive therevenue that the sales team is trying to hit. And so one thing that I I hopewe all start to do better as marketing leaders is to coordinate andcollaborate with sales more than we have so often. That's a relationshiplike filled with friction and anxiety and frustration. And we all know thatlike death cycle where sales doesn't perform, they blame marketing.Marketing says, well sales, you didn't do anything with what we sent you.Right. And so I think the most, the place where a marketing ops team canmake marketers the most efficient is in tracking revenue. Right? And so one ofthe things that a wonderful marketing ops leader that I worked with helped meestablish was basically a revenue forecast. And so we would lookhistorically at what our leads and opportunities would produce, how muchpipeline or closed one revenue they would produce. We'd track that overtime and then we would apply it to our...

...our forecasted incoming leads for thenext month. So we take historical revenue and historical pipeline. We'dapply it to next month's lead forecast and we would come up with a pipelineforecast. So instead of just saying yes, we're going to run these programs andwe expect this many leads. We would go through and would literally say weexpect X leads from adwords and why leads from paid social and z leads fromthis webinar and based off of those different lead sources, we could planon a B or C dollars worth of pipeline. And so what that did was it builtinsane amounts of confidence from our sales counterparts. When we said thisis how much revenue we think we can get you to. We knew that within, you know,90, accuracy, that's what we would get them to. And that's the perfect exampleof how we're marketing. Ops Leader can make you more efficient from the veryget go. Hi dan Sanchez here with a quick break from this episode, sponsorVidyard. If you haven't started using personal video yet to enhance yourmarketing campaigns, you're missing out. Having the ability to quickly capturevideo and record my computer screen or both helps me not only create marketingassets faster, it makes them way more personable. I use personal videos insocial media, email, blast landing pages and even on our website, Vidyardmakes it easy to record host in bed and share videos to more deeply engagedwith your ideal buyer's prospects have told me repeatedly that they are blownaway every time they get one for me. So sign up for Vidyard free today by goingto Vidyard dot com slash GDP growth and just like you guys, the team at Vidyardcan't keep up with all these promo codes on podcasts, so they are makingsigning up as easy as possible. So no...

...promo code needed. Just go to Vidyarddot com slash GDP growth. So start using vidyard completely free and as abonus, get their 2021 B two B video trans guide. It sounds like the dreamright. Being able to predict within that kind of accuracy. Yeah, easy tosay so hard to accomplish. But I think the magic behind the scenes And I thinkone thing about that is oftentimes when we're less technical, we just try tolook at things through one lens. We say things like I'm going to bring in andI'm making numbers up. I'm going to bring in 200 leads this month for thesales team. What marketing ops can really help us to do is to be moregranular, Right? And to look at things that are more at a tighter focus. Sorather than focusing on our program in general, what will each lead source door what will a campaign provide? And when we break things down more granular,Then we don't have to work on an average level. Right? We don't have tosay our average lead. Our average conversion rate is 25%. We can say ouraverage conversion rate for adwords is 40. Our average conversion rate for awebinar is five. Right? And so we can be more granular and therefore moreaccurate. And I love that when a marketing, when a when a mops partnergets that, it is just like clockwork. You can you can really work some magicin any sized organization. one thing that you mentioned to me that reallystood out to me because it's something I'm like, you know what? That's right.But I never really thought about this dynamic of a good marketing ops personas you said it brings maturity to your whole team. Yeah. So in collegeprograms You can't keep up with marketing, right? So when you havethese college professors that have been that have been in academia for 20 yearsand they're teaching about marketing, they haven't been in it recently enoughto teach about attribution or google...

...analytics or U. T. M. S. Right? Likelike or a C. I. D. Coats right? Like they haven't been in it enough to teachabout those things. And so entry level marketing employees come in and theyhave no clue what U. T. M. Under source. Underscore source equals is orunderscore campaign equals is like they don't know what that is. And so amarketing ops partner that is that is seasoned, right? And I'm talking abouta leader not not someone who's on their first gig in their first six months init, but a marketing leader like that can teach the rest of your team how tothink about marketing from an analytics and a digital and a reporting standperspective. So I actually have a great his name is Reicher Rikers on my teamhere at motive osce Itty and we've got a little bit of a younger team herewhich is fantastic. They bring energy and new ideas and new perspectives. Ihad Reicher take an entire section of our of our all hands meeting and teachabout you tms basically from one oh one because I knew they weren't getting itin school. I could tell that they weren't learning about it in theirprevious roles. But Ryker knows that stuff back and forth left and right,right. And so he helped me mature the team and where before they weren'tthinking about attribution and tags and keeping track of their spend. Now wemake sure things go through Rikers filter and they understand why we'redoing that. It's not just an extra box, they see the value. So we have allleveled up at our organization for having record on our team. So it'sessentially training your team and more of the technical side of marketingbecause I mean, even if they are teaching good marketing, which I'd saymost colleges aren't even really teaching the good basics of mark, notat all. How to write the poppy, how to find your right audience, how to how towrite good value propositions that's like mentioned value proposition, right.Uh so they're not doing that, but then they're definitely not covering thetechnical side which is like you teams...

...highly technical and how it capturesthose and how it loads into the google analytics and all that kind of stuff.It almost essentially kind of builds a technical prowess of the team, which ishighly important for both the strategic and tactical execution of any modernmarketing. Right? Um, you say it goes beyond technical or is it mostly like atechnical maturity that it brings? I would say there's another side of that.Oftentimes they help provide a better perspective of realities. Sometimes weas marketers, we dream a lot and we think this would be fun and what if wedid this and because of their personality, marketing office person isprobably a little bit more analytical, a little bit more realistic, they'reaware of constraints. And so they provide some balance to a marketingteam instead of everybody kind of, you know, wanting to buy giant plankingboards, which I bought a giant plank aboard the other day, but instead ofeveryone wanted to just have fun and make things awesome. They help youthink about like real constraints, which is important. And so, um I thinkthat balance absolutely matures a team and we think about that in differentways throughout the organization broadly, we talk about diversity andinclusion and the marketing ops person within the marketing team provides somediversity of thought. So I hope that's not an insensitive way to frame that. Idon't I don't mean that that solves any, you know, diversity and inclusionsolutions. But having that person within the microcosm of a marketingteam make sure that you are thinking more than just the creative branding,bright colour side of marketing makes so much sense. One of the reasons why Ilike my marketing ops person in my last job was because he actually came from ahard science background. He was a chemist and had done like post gradwork in chemistry. So he's like highly analytical and he had some programmingexperience, he's highly technical, didn't know anything about marketing,which was fine. I taught him all the basics and he knew and marketing tookover adwords and then are and Crm and...

...they are all our websites help me codea lot of fun things around the website. You know, it's funny you mentioned thatdepth e brought on the technical analytical side and the stuff he coulddo with Excel and just getting us to think at a different level andanalytically was unbelievable. Yeah. I kind of feel you when you talk aboutlike different level of thinking. Yeah, they do. I it's funny you say that oneof the organizations I worked for a few years ago um are the gentleman who ranour marketing ops team had studied architecture in his uh in his for hishis undergraduate degree. So he he studied architecture, did an internshipand said, now this isn't really for me, and uh and and jumped into marketingoperations and he was incredible. The guy, the guy was a wizard and could dothings in in uh in minutes, that would take average teams months. So he was hewas great to work with. So maybe that's kind of a tip for anybody listening tothis. If you want to like bringing someone entry, looked at one of thehard skills that could be engineering could be the hard sciences, anybodywho's really good at like physics or chemistry, those guys are just amazing.Um But architecture, that's one, I didn't think that's a different one,work out really well, have a different way of thinking that would probablyapply really well to uh to marketing. Ops of course, most markets don't havea background in education, They didn't study marketing is their major motion.A lot of people are marketing anyway. We jump over from some other world dan.One other thing that frankly just came to me, I hadn't really thought about itin our preparation discussions, but one other thing that marketing Ops leadersdo is they are an excellent external partner, right, meaning no one isbetter equipped to go talk to your sales operations counterparts. Right?And oftentimes if there's some technical technical knowledge that'sneeded on the product side, your marketing Ops person can speak thatlanguage and so they do mature the team...

...in that they provide this kind oftechnical resource that other parts of the entity can connect into. Whereaslove creative directors, love marketing managers like myself, but we're notalways technical and therefore that limits how we can interact with otherpeople. Think about if your Web deV team is hosted by the is housed withinthe engineering department like Marketing Ops person can be way moreefficient as a translator and as a I'm going to say an ambassador than youraverage marketing employee makes sense. They certainly interface better thanwith all the other technical people around the work. And I'd say, yeah,even your thin op team or whatever depending on what you're doing thereall okay to speak each other's languages a lot more easily. Exactly.Exactly. One of the last things you mentioned around why you should hire amarketing ops person pretty early was that it makes you look a lot better infront of your executive team. Gosh, that's such a selfish answer, isn't it?My goodness. Um listening to that back, I'm like that's that seems so selfish.But let me explain that one, I'm about to go into a market with the executiveteam tomorrow. I said on our executive team here at motor velocity once amonth or once a time period, each department does a deep dive, right? Andit's a little bit like a quarterly business review where we say, here'sthe things that were amazing. Here's the things that are broken, here's whatwe're working on. And I spent a full day with Reicher whose who runs mymarketing ops team side by side. And we went through reports and we wentthrough graphs and charts and analytics. We did some quantitative and then wedid some qualitative analysis where we dug into specific lead sources. We duginto specific parts of the sales cycle. We dug into our technology and our techstack and we spent that time so that...

...we'd be ready for this meeting. Andthat doesn't sound like anything special. But Riker gave me a level ofunderstanding that I don't and can't have on my own right with all thethings that I'm managing budget, hiring, strategy, speaking engagements. I can't,I can't be an expert on everything, but my marketing ops partner helps me to dothat and helps me to like understand what's important and what's noise. Sowhen I go into that executive meeting, I feel ultra confident, right? And Ifeel confident because I can get up and speak to it. And I know that if forsome reason I can't, my partner can go a mile deep and a mile wide if he needsto and in front of that executive team. So for me, I'm not alone, right? Andand again, that diversity of thought, that diversity of experience, thattechnical knowledge when I'm when I'm in that meeting, I know that I cancount on him and have been able to on my on my marketing operationscounterparts in the past, I can count on them and therefore we as a team lookpolished and prepared and knowledgeable because we are so maybe maybe thereason that when you asked me that question, which we had talked about,maybe the reason that felt uncomfortable is because I said, itmakes me look good in front of the executive team. And maybe the betterway to say that is makes the marketing team look better in front of the exactit's selfish. Yes, it does make you individually look good because you'rethe leader of the team. And so yeah, there there's a lot of benefits to that.But by looking, making the team in yourself look good in front of theexecutive team, it gives you more ability to get buy in on other thingsthat could help the team needs more help with this needs budget for this.The things they've been bugging you about, well now you're going to be ableto go get the resources that they've been asking you for, you're gonna beable to hire that person which is a new job creation, right? So yes, it'sselfish, but it's also, I mean if...

...you're a good leader, it's it's for theteam. Sure. Yes, I had to do look good yourself to. It's not necessarily Yeah,of course. That definitely helps one of balancing yourself with the team. Oneof the Yeah, and we've got an awesome team over here. It's uh and not not asales pitch but motive velocity is all about peer to peer recognition. And sowe do our, we do a really good, I got my things matter shirt today on, infact we do a pretty good job of making sure everyone is appreciated andrecognized and I hope, I hope my team feels that they're awesome. One of oneof the things that just kind of triggered for me as you were talkingabout that, is that a good marketing operations individual or team lead alsoought to have a really unbiased perspective, right? Maybe they add someneutrality to your conversation. Whereas you know, instead of looking ateverything as though it's perfect and shiny and exactly working exactly howit should. Marketing operations can shed the accuracy light on that, rightand help determine what's right or what's wrong. In fact, I don't know ifI should say this on the podcast, but I'm going to like, we're going intothis executive meeting with a couple of things that haven't gone perfect. Likethere are some things that aren't polished, they're not great and we'regoing in about those relatively blatantly. It's certainly not adoomsday issue, but I think we're going in there trying to be honest and sayhere's where we just killed it and here's a couple things where we clearlydidn't do what we needed to do. So I appreciate that balanced perspectiveand like being held accountable and and looking at things the right way. Justnot the way that makes us look good. I do like how marketing ops mindset is alittle bit more data heavy, Right? It's like marketing is the balance betweenthe art and the science. I had one way I'm gonna, I'm gonna go towards the artside because I think it's in the creative that winds, But ultimately Ilike to have it all informed by good data. And it's nice to have that otherother person that pokes holes in your...

...art and your thinking and your project.Especially your projections and how successful you think something might beright. A good personality to have on the team. Yeah. You and I are speakingthe same language on that one. So is there anything else our audience shouldknow about hiring that person? Maybe if you're hiring that first person, wherewould you find that person? What level would you hire? Are you looking for amarketing ops director as a first hire or a marketing ops specialist? Yeah. Sowhat's it like? Think about, think about what a marketing ops specialistis. Right. Do you have enough experience that? Are you thereinterning or do you have enough experience that you can that you canactually contribute? So certainly that's a circumstantial one damn. Likeif you've got all the budget in the world and all the flexibility, then gohire the most seasoned person you can find. For me, I'm a huge user of linkedin. And so of course I posted the role and um, and you know, had had peopleapplying to it and I also went out and I found people that I that I liked andthought could be good. And I really tapped my network to see who would bethe most valuable asset in the organization or in the, in thecommunity. You know, I think one of the things Covid was kind of striking upand when we made this current or excuse me, it was, it was kind of in themiddle of it when we made the higher here at motor velocity. What I wouldsay you do is you think about your circumstances and then find the personwho has the experience to fill that out. Do you want to be a marcato shop? Doyou want to be a hubspot shop? Is your sales office counterpart strong? What'syour executive team is feeling towards or understanding of marketingoperations? I think there's a lot that goes into it. You're probably notgetting what you need if someone has 1-2 years of total experience, right?Like they need more depth than that if they're going to be your operationsleader. Um And and so again, that's...

...probably a pretty soft answer there,but I would recommend you really think about what your circumstances allow.Absolutely. Well lets me know that I probably don't want to intern settingup my hope spot account. Probably somebody with 4 to 5 years experienceat least. Right, Who was maybe done it at least once. You might not be a goodplace, a bad place to start spending on your budget. Right. Of course. Exactly.The budget, the more better you can hire. One thing that I've noticed againon linked in the operations community is getting louder and bigger. There'sum, there's groups on, on linkedin where you see them pretty consistentlytalking about what they're up against and um, they're, I think they'reconnecting more and, um, communicating jobs to each other. And so it'sdefinitely becoming more of a tight knit community as the, as theprofession matures like this didn't exist a decade ago, right? Like thiswasn't a thing in this format. And so as, as the profession has a longertenure as there's more senior leaders in the role, the communities areformalizing and if I were, if I were making a higher like this, I would wantto be involved and listening to those communities and making sure thatwhoever I was bringing on was, you know, well respected within those groups.Trying to think of like if I were hiring a marketing person, I'd probablydo this would be to be growth. But even if I didn't have a marketing facingorganization like Sweet fish, I'd probably start my own marketing podcastand just interviewed them all and then ask you want a job? All right. Do youwant to do you want to work here? Exactly? How is your current job? It'sa good not so good. It's not good enough man. Almost like pre interviews.Right. Yeah. I like the way you think I like the way you think we kind of usethe podcast for us. It's a way to kind of get to know anybody and everybodyand that's how we roll. Yeah, we all we all like to be heard. So is thereanything else the audience should know...

...about hiring a marketing Ops personearly that you think would be helpful? Um I the only thing that I would say isto add a little bit of counterbalance, meaning I've seen that worksuccessfully and I know the value of that, your organization's needs will bedifferent. Maybe you don't have a brand established at all and or maybe youdon't have a single ounce of content. Right? If you bring on a marketing Opsperson and you don't have any ads to run or any content to promote or anysocial presence, then the marketing ops person can't operate an empty pipeline.Right? So you should think about your skill set. I'm a very demand focusedindividual. And so when I get into an organization, I immediately think, howcan I fill these pipes? If you don't have full pipes, then the marketing opsperson will be twiddling their thumbs for a while. And so when we say theyare the first person, we maybe we mean there the second or the third person,right? But if you're hiring a marketing, if your if your marketing operationsrole Is 30 headcount in, you're making the wrong choice. So not the firstperson, but one of the first people, you won't hire the mansion or a reallygood content marketer first or something like that. You got it on topof already having a q earlier good sales cycle and that's going, you haveproduct market fit and you're scaling now. Exactly. You got it, yep, that's agood clarification. So I had that in my head, but I'm like, I'm going to theaudience knows now. Yeah, absolutely Logan, thank you so much for joining meon the show today, where can people go to learn more about you and metadata?Sorry, not metadata, motive velocity, metadata sounds like a nice company too.So I'm huge on spending time on linkedin, I love spending that timethere, I'm really easy to find under Logan. Mallory motive. Ah City is awonderful company. We focus on making...

...people happier at work, we focus onpeer to peer recognition and helping managers be better leaders. If you'retrying to make your culture great or if you're trying to figure out how toconnect your teams in a post Covid world where they're not in the officeevery day, spend a couple minutes with us and we'll show you some greatsolutions and it's motive. Ah city dot com but again, find find me on linkedinand reach out and I'll get you in the right place. Fantastic. Again, thanksfor joining me on GDP growth. Thanks dan, appreciate you at Sweet Fish. We're on a mission tocreate the most helpful content on the internet for every job function andindustry on the planet for the B two B marketing industry. This show is howwe're executing on that mission. If you know a marketing leader, that would bean awesome guest for this podcast. Shoot me a text message. Don't call mebecause I don't answer unknown numbers, but text me at 4074 and I know 33 to 8.Just shoot me their name may be a link to their linkedin profile and I'd loveto check them out to see if we can get them on the show. Excite Yeah.

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