B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 1693 · 5 months ago

4 Things Marketing Ops Is Thinking but Won't Tell You, with Charlie & Christie

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this replay episode, James Carbary and Dan Sanchez talk to Charlie Saunders and Christie Fusco, co-founders of marketing operations platform CS2, about 4 things your marketing ops person is thinking but won’t tell you.

Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be tob growth. This is B tob growth coming to you from just outside Austin, Texas. I'm your host, Benjie Block, and I am joined from Nashville, Tennessee, by our director of growth here at sweet fish, Dan Sanchez, and from Louisville, Kentucky, are creative content lead, Emily Brady. Welcome to be to be growth guys. Thanks, Benjie. Who Ready to go? Feel like you just have to hit that with intensity. Some reason, I don't know why, got a match. It got have lots of energy right from the top, and I think we all do. We're ready for today's topics. So, Dan, emily and I have already brought our topics this week, each of us. If you're new to this, maybe this is your first time listening. We're trying something for the last couple weeks where we just have these round table discussions what we're seeing in marketing. Today's your day, Dan. We were having a conversation on slack yesterday and around trends. So so bring us into this conversation. What are you thinking about here? Trends. There's so many marketing trends going on all the time. And then there's big trends, like tick Tock's big trend right and marketing world, and then there's micro trends. There is, of course, the little trends taking place in Tick Tock, but then there's like little trends were maybe a technology company makes something possible that wasn't possible before. For example, I found out that you could retarget people on Youtube with ads based on their search criteria, even if they never visited your website. That was really good for a while. Well, it became available on a march of some year and then I wrote it until it wasn't. It just wasn't profitable anymore. The little things like that happen all the time. Sometimes because a feature is just sometimes because habits of people change, demographics change, we're climate change, like just change is haping taking place all the time right. So trends are happening all over and I've noticed that being early on some of these trends has massive benefits. It's like surfing, and I was as a conversation that Benjie and emily and I had yesterday and I was kind of comparing it to surfing. Right, if you you're sitting out there in the water and their swells coming behind you. But the timing is everything because you have to start paddling and onboard and get it just right, because if you're too early, than the rave crashes on top of you, but if you're too late, then you miss it and everybody else gets on it right, who timed it right, and rides it in and your you have to wait for the next one. So it's something that I see all the time. But timing it is quite hard, because yesterday I threw out an idea like hey, maybe this is something, and then I don't know if you guys were as enthusiastic as I was about about it, but it is an interesting conversation of how did time trends and how to how to get onto them right. So, Benji, like when I posted that idea yesterday, like how did that at you as far as like time, trying to time time a trend? What does it make you think of and what do you look for when you're when you're looking for things like that? So another image comes to my mind, and the image that comes to my mind is when you see people jumping rope like an elementary school right and you have the person that's like waiting and they're like trying to figure out should I jump in? Should I wait? Should I jump in? Should I wait, and like that is marketing. It's like is this worth jumping into? Is this worth testing? Is this like what's our strategy around when we're going to go in? Or and we all respect these types of marketers as well, where it's like I'm hyper focused on the strategy I've laid out and I'm good at tuning out the noise, like there's all these waves I could ride and I've chosen which ones I'm going to lock down and there will be strategy adjustment down the road, but for now, like tune out the noise. So I think that image comes to mind. I love marketers that...

...can see into the future. In a sense, that's one of the things that I think makes a good marketer, is spotting trends. So you're totally right on that, like we need to pick the waves we want to ride. To me, it's more for each person. If you're thinking about your marketing strategy, you've got to know you well enough in your company well enough to be like that's something we need to try lock in on and experiment with us, or or jump fully, and I don't know, but that's that's where I think that the tension is right and where we can all bring our own perspectives. When you bring up a specific topic and go this is clearly a trend, right. You can point out trends and then you can go, is this one worth getting into it, and that's where ALD of fun arguments happen. Funny I could think of trends we've already I've only been I've been a sweet fish for about two years and we've taken many swings. Some of them connected man. Some of them were awesome, like the Linkedin Evangelist Program who knew like we james kind of called it and then we execute against it ended up being really good. We also went hard on clubhouse for a month, and I mean like hard, total like that way fizzled out fast and honestly, was never good. We paddled try to get on it and then the way just ended. For a lot of baby marketers, that one didn't pan out. So these things come and go and you can try to catch him at it doesn't. It's is no guarantees in it. But if you cash that, the Linkedin evangelist program ended up being so good for us. In Two thousand and twenty one provided like the line share of new revenue for sweetfish that I'm like, if we hadn't tried that, that would have been really bad. But we certainly took a lot of swings and missed two, or we didn't catch it in time. I'd say one. What we're Emily's capitalizing on is tick tock for bdb right, because when we talked about it originally, emily was like way back and like fall, I. October, right, and by even then it was like maybe this becomes a thing. I swear it was like a swell moment where you could see this way. You like, I don't not sure if this is going to be a wave, but it might be, so you should do something about it, and you like freaking took to it like better than I could have ever done, to the point where I'd say, like, you were probably second after maybe todd, but other than him. I'm like, I think emily was hitting a hard before everybody else was, for sure, and that's paying out now. So these things come and go. Yeah, I think I don't. I don't think I have that skill. Of you know, a marketer who sees into the future, but I am a big fan of testing and experimenting within reason, because it like, like Dan said, the evangelist program we jumped on that really early. I feel like I this yere hot topic is employe advocacy or you know, towards the end of last year, but we got on it last summer and we were at the first either, you know, Gong and drift had been doing it for a while, and so we looked at that and said, okay, I think this is beneficial and got it started and it's been really beneficial for us and profitable for us, and so that was a wise move. And I think tick tock is sort of the same way, where Dan was like you should consider getting on tick tock and I was like I don't want to get out tick tock, like I'm not I don't do video. And then todd was, I think, the first one on there that I'm aware of any way, or like Stephen Pope and and I just saw what they were doing and it was kind of tough, like to know what to do when no one else is doing it. But that's kind of the beauty of it too, in the benefit of it too. It's like you're you're paving the way. Other people are looking at you to see how to do it, and so I think I got lucky in that regard and that I just I started creating content there and other people now are like, okay, what are you doing right and how can I do that? Because there are a ton of people who have jumped on Tick Tock, be to be marketers, be to be sales who have jumped on in the last few months because they see that it's a long play and not just it's not another clubhouse. I don't think so. I think it's interesting too, because in this discussion, testing is like it's kind of depends...

...on time, commitment, right, and what kind of if it's content, like, for instance, for Tick Tock, the bars pretty low, like if it hadn't have succeeded, all right, we just move on, like of course you're going to test it because, well, you had to be convinced, but once you were in, like it's worth testing, because tick tock has some staying power. We see past social media platforms and like how they've performed and how long they've been around. So like we so we see something coming with Tick Tock in the amount of use. It's worth testing different things on there, and the bars pretty low as far as time, commitment cost. So that, to me, becomes part of it. Is when we're looking for waves to ride, where can we run tests where we could see a ton or reward versus, like, where are people doing things that, I mean, maybe we just shouldn't be testing because it's going to cost us a lot in some some way, and that becomes a big differentiator. To me. I think you're totally right. In the beginning you were like too many people jumping rope, and then there's like tons of jumper rope games going on over where. So not only you not executing, but you're like wondering whether I should jump into that trend or these dozens other trends that are going on or things that you in some most people aren't even aware like where the trend is at. To them it seems like it's early, but actually you're actually on the tail end and you just hadn't heard about it because you weren't paying attention for three years. Happens a lot. So which one is to jump into? I will say the biggest problem most marketers face specifically be to be marketers, because we surveyed them. Is Distraction. There's way too much going on, way too many initiatives. So I think you're right bending that you kind of have to have your two, maybe three channels that are working and you you're executing and they're pretty much they're well documented. You have a process, it's pretty well delegated, like it's running and it's working well. To be able to even afford the time and the energy to be able to chase the little microtrends, you have to have that first. But then being systematic. I think I like Jim Collins, talks about like shooting bullets before cannonballs. In too many company shoot cannon balls. Maybe it's because they're afraid of looking bad. If you're a big company, you have a brand image to recognize and you're like, oh, that's not on brand, even though it's tick tock and it's it's honestly not supposed to look on brand. Right. It's like if you're if you're a big corporate brand and you're on Tick Tock, you probably need to figure out how to morphear corporate brand in order to fit the style of Tick Tock. More than make your vertical videos branded like your corporate brand. Right, yeah, don't bring your shiny marketing to tick Tock. That's not going to work right. So I think too many big brands shoot big cannon balls and probably just need a task and individual what experimenting, maybe without the company brand, to gain some experience and some expertise and it before rolling it out across the company, right, or just hiring somebody that knows what they're doing. Like we're fine labs hired todd. He was a video guy that knew what he was doing, really successful on Youtube. The hired him and now he's killing tick tock. So you can hire people that know that hire or already have influence to. That's a good way to get on. I think we're seeing a lot of this in marketing, where our time is speeding up in a good way between idea and execution. So, like even the idea of sprints within be to be like Texass right, where it's like okay, two weeks and we can put something out. And now, granted, you wish you could do it immediately, but I think that type of like getting in that mode where, like things are being constantly iterated on and updated and improved has a lot of benefits that we're seeing more and more play out across marketing, play out across businesses, where they realize they have to shrink the time in between an idea and the execution of it. Tick Tock is another iteration of that, where it's like speed this process up majorly between we have an idea and let's get this thing out into the world. Well, love chatting around this. There's so much that we're paying attention to as marketers, trying to figure out what waves are worth...

...riding and, using the jump rope analogy, what we're trying to actually jump into. So getting some clarity around that and keeping your eyes open. Hopefully you have someone on your team like I love these discussions right because we're all focused in different ways. That looking at different waves and our personalities are going to allow us to like align with different ways that we want to ride, and that brings tremendous benefit to the company as a whole and obviously to our individual things that we're working on and doing. So if you have any thoughts on this topic, you want to talk about it further, feel free to reach out to Emily Dan or. I over on Linkedin. We'd love to hear from you and connect. Today we are sharing a throwback episode and so we're about to share a conversation. Topic of this is for things marketing ops is thinking but won't tell you, and I think this is going to be a fun throwback episode. We're going to be able to get something out of it. So let's jump in. Charlie, you know, as we were going back and forth on what the topic was going to be for this you know, we were talking about what are the things that you're marketing up? Person Isn't going to tell you or probably won't tell you, but they're definitely thinking it. Give us a little bit of context, background. You set it in your linkedin post when we were promoting to see the day. It's not that they're vindictive or that they're keeping things from you, but give us a little bit of context before we dive into these four what these four things are? Yeah, yeah, I mean and yeah, like I said, in Nothington pist I don't think any mocking up, for I in person is trying to hide things on purpose. I think you probably get from maybe the theme, from some of these reasons that we come up with that mighty. People are very much people pleases. They like to keep people happy, they like to, you know, over deliver, they like to do things quickly and make sure that every every one of the marketing cells team has what they need. So sometimes that means they're not like telling everyone the full picture of kind of you know, I won't give away any of the details about what we're going to do about but there's a some some certain aspects there. Maybe they're they're holding back so they don't like disappoint people or maybe kind of make things more complicated for people. Say, that's kind of a theme that we'll run through some of these things. But but yeah, like I said, it's not that they're trying to hide things. We have vindictive or bad reasons or anything like that. We're marketing up to people, have been for ten years and you know, you know, we would never say a bad thing about marking ops. People a lot of I love it. So so, Charlie or Cristy, let's dive into this first day. What's the first thing that you're marketing out? Person Won't tell you, but they probably want to tell you. Yeah, so where we split these half and half. So I've got the first one here say everything you ask if you're marketing operations person, is going to take longer than you think and it's probably going to take longer than they're telling you that. This is back to the people pleasers thing you are. You want to get that nurture set up, you want to implement that tool, you want to set up this process to do whatever. The markings person as being a people piece that they want to get that done quickly. More often than not, alot of the company is that. We work for the BETB tech companies moving fast, have to deliver on things quickly. So they're going to buy into that and make it tell you, yeah, I can do this in a week or I can get this done in a couple of days. But what they're not telling you is that actually, it really probably needs a lot longer time than that to make sure you're not going to create a lot of technical debt, any issues down the line, and maybe they do needn more time just because it's the task is going to literally a human could couldn't do it any quicker. So then they're going to end up working nights and weekends to make it happen. The other thing is part of that is that every one of the one of the things that later on we'll talk about is technical debt. But these systems are just getting so unbelievably complicated with now, you know, thousands and thousands of Mr Tech tools every you know process that everyone can imagine, like trying to bend these tools to their will. So that just adds even more and more time on to...

...everything that they need to do. So if they're having to rush things done and then that technical debt accumulates, it then takes even longer for other aspects or other projects that you're working on to get done. So the first one, you know, it just everything takes longer than you think. So when you are working with your marketing operations team, give them a bit of leeway. You know, yes, you might need to get their email out of that not just set up or that process set up quickly, but try and give them as much warning as post abort so that they can have the time that they actually need to get it done. Makes Sense. crissier then and anything to add to apt. Almost wonder if there's like a time in a place and a different for different sizes and different companies, when giving leeway almost felt like sometimes people add too much process and too much time for small companies. When you're like, you know, trying to apply enterprise level processes the smart companies, that becomes like a just a blanket on a fire, just sucks out all the oxygen. Right. So how do you know what to do at different stages of like a company size? Is it? My question makes sense? It does. Yeah, it does. I think there's a base level that everyone has to be at right, like, if you're just slacking marketing ups for everything you need them to do, then that it doesn't matter what company size you are. That's probably not the best way of doing it right. So there's going to always be some process or a request process that you should be going through, because that just helps the marketing operations team prioritize. My ninety nine percent of marking up teams are understaff, so they have to be ruthless prioritization and if they're just dealing with whatever the latest lack of emergency is there and not getting to the most important projects. So having a way to at least be able to document what these asks are and then be able to prioritize is useful. And then when it comes to campaign execution, you know, getting that nurture set up, getting that email at the door, getting that webinar program set up, having just a well documented process, you know, whatever it is. And Yeah, don't open Genera if you're a fifty person starts up, but still knowing what of the steps that we need to go through, like submit that a sauna form to then get the information that you need over to the marketing operations person so they can actually do their job, because so much time is lost in just the back and forth to just get things done, and that's just isn't in efficient. Regardless of whatever company size you're out, I mean it makes a lot of sense, I feel like, between marketing marketings, kind of like me and James. Right now it sweet fish and we're just the twenty five person company. But even then I'm like James, I needed more than a text message. I mean it text messages, but I'm like, I'm gonna have to with extract the information that I need in our next one on one. It's really like the text message. I put it on my put it on our as on on list just to talk about it if I can get the right information. So I'm usually the one executing coming up with some ideas, but James comes up with lots of ideas. We have to filter it through the now or later or good idea for some day list? Definitely. Chrissy, anything to add before we get to the second thing? You're marketing out? Person will tell you no, but I think that's a great segue into the second point. I want to make sure we have enough time to cover all of it, but you know, it's a really good segue into our second thing. That Mos people won't tell you, and and really that's there's just no such thing as an easy tool to manage. I think a lot of the Times benders will tell you that their tools easy to implement and integrate and and really the fact is, even if it is easy, a lot of times it rarely is. But every time you add in a new tool it creates an exponential amount of work. So doesn't just create the amount of work maybe they're telling you, it creates an exponential so every new tool you're adding it has more and more work tied to it, because you need to make sure that when you're adding these tools, the main thing is there's a lot of you know, human resources that you need to implement and maintain these, and...

...the reason for that is you need to figure out where does this tool make sense a nurse stock? You need to make sure there's a, you know, a full plan for implementing it, and then once you implement it, there's going to be things that you need you know, could be impacted, that you need to pay attention to. There's order of operations, there's Dataflow, there's even maybe legacy issues that come to the surface that you have to work around, and so all of this themes. You know, implementation a lot of time. Seems simple and but once you get into it, it's a hell of a lot more work than what you thought. And so a lot of teams across marketing will select a tool and then kind of just throw it on the marking oups teams plate and they have a lot going on already and they may be in the impression, because they're not technical people, that it's easy. You know, my sales person told me this is easy to implement, and so their expectations to start using it and implement it into their strategy is, you know, a lot different than the amount of time will actually take to implement, and so they may even be banking on using this tool to execute their strategy right away, but in the end marking knots then feels a lot of pressure to implement it and then just you know, is like Charlie's said. You know where people please. There's we want to get it done, we want to get it done to the best of our abilities, but in some ways there's shortcuts the need to be made. There's maybe some things you're sacrificing or they're not meeting that deadline, and then that team is a bit frustrated. So just know that. You know, there's no such thing as the easy tool to manage and the main thing is the maintenance part to every new tool that you're adding on, the market knots team has to maintain it. So when and the human resources and the marketing oops team is not always fully staff the way it should be given the amount of work that needs to be done. So I think for this is where empathy comes in. A lot of this is, you know, the things that they're not telling you. If they did, you actually might have a little bit more empathy for the marking knots team and how much work and different challenges that they're faced with and and this is a big one and makes a sense. I want to also make sure that we have enough time for QA. Charlie, do you want to jump in with our third talking point here? Sure, and I'm going to bring up a everyone's favorite thing to height, which is attribution, of almost like a dirty word on linkedin these days, and I think they're to bring it to the thing that markingest person way tell you as a is a lot of people outside of marketing brations who aren't maybe as close as the data or have been living with, you know, attribution tools and reporting tools for a long time, kind of see that a lot of this conversation is just kind of missing the point of attribution and there's a lot of misunderstanding about what it is. Alison on our team, she phrases this perfectly where she says attribution is not there to prove your efforts, if there to improve your efforts. So everyone thinks like, okay, if I get this attribution to I can make marketing look great, like this is the thing, like this Webinar was the thing that created that opportunity, and it's like yes, and they're like that Webinar has potentially influence that opportunity. But regardless, that's not the point. The point is to be able to analyze what is working, look at the touch points, look at the channels, look at your campaigns, and then use that information to improve. And it could consistently improve over time. And the thing about consistently improving over times you don't have to improve dramatically every day. If you can just improve one, two, three percent every day within your decision making in your budget allocation, that's going to compound to have a massive effect over time. And that's where attribution data is useful because, and one of the things actually that a lot of people hater on it for is that it doesn't track the kind of quote unquote,...

...invisible touch points like podcasts, like clubhouse rooms, like Linkedin Post. But that's fine. Just because it doesn't track, that doesn't mean you just throw it out and not track anything. You know, you still as a human being, as a mock to you have to use your brain and interpret the data and then come up with the best way to utilize that and make decisions and you which factor in these touch points that you're not able to track. So well, this, this conversation kind of kind of misses the point, and I think a lot of my people and market operations are scared to kind of say that when they're seeing this this happening, and really they want to say it, but maybe this turn into such a polarized situation right now with attribution that is, you know there speak out that stuff. Yeah, and I mean you've got folks like, you know, Chris Walker or gave gear heart, that are that take a very strong stand on one way, you know, not just after us. And there's lots of different topics like this. And so somebody posting the other day about it's been really hot lately to talk about how, you know, life's too short to work for a CEO that doesn't get marketing, and somebody had a point to like, well, it's not really the CEO's job to get marketing. It's the marketer's job to convince them of the value of marketing. And so there's always two sides to that. And I remember actually sharing with somebody after I saw your post, about that idea of attribution is meant to improve, not it's not just to prove that would really spoke to a Chrissie. Let's dive into the fourth thing. That marketing. Your marketing off person isn't gonna, isn't going to tell you, and then we'll dive into Qa, sure, and Charlie mentioned it at the beginning. But the final thing we want to touch on is technical debt. Is Worse than you think and I think this is coming to the forefront and surface more so now, like Charlie said, as you know, systems are getting more and more dated and were, but we're also adding on more technology and more digital touch points and just more, you know, legacy workflow sitting there. There's there's a lot of technical debt that marking ops people are dealing with. I mean sales ops as well, but you know, a big sign of that is marking out people to spend way too much time in rabbit holes, like chasing you know, why did this thing happen, why did that thing happen? And that keeps them from actually doing their day to day jobs because they're constantly chasing this. But many companies are kind of past that point of no return because the resources required to fix this technical debt are more than the company has available, or they would have to literally just stop everything that they're doing to really fix it. And in some cases, and this might be warranted, or they need to throw more resources at it, but it continues to accumulate and it just causes, you know, a lot of inefficiency and really it's not moths fault a lot of the time. So not pros will oftenhirt systems and they'll do their best to be this. They'll fix issues. This is the main thing recently at CST. We come in, we do how the checks and we we will help the teams actually deal with a lot of this technical debt. But even beyond that, it's also from different tools that maybe they don't hold the keys to. So sales force has a lot of technical debt and now that is impacting marking ops work and what they're doing, and so there's there's more of a light shine on this, but in some ways they can't fix it all. But they also don't want to. Probably, you know, they don't have the chance to really describe this to the team or they don't want to throw other teams under the bus, or they just can't complain because there's no no one really to fix it but themselves, that they have these other goals to hit. So yeah, just technical debt is definitely worse than most people think and and they it's something to keep in mind as we complicate things. Really the whole goal recently is how do we simplify but has something sophisticated at scales. But...

...let's just you know, anything we do is adding more and more technical debt or technical that is keeping us from hitting those goals. So makes a lot of sense. Awesome. Chrissie and Charlie are want to open it up to the rest of the audience now if you, if anybody has any questions around marketing ops. For those of you that have joined recently, Charlie and Chriss you have been talking about four things and marketing ops person won't tell you and we're going to be posting this on our podcast, babygrow. So if you're interested in the rest of the conversation you came in halfway through, just subscribe to baby growth podcasts wherever you listen to your podcast, that you can listen to the entire conversation in a few days when it's live. But Dan, any thoughts on what Christy just shared? Think the only thing that I was thinking the whole time is like, man, they're absolutely right. It does get hard to keep everything bank today and to keep things going and almost wanted like a part two of like strategies to keep things clean and keep things working smoothly. But that's probably a little bit beyond the scope of what we're going to talk about in this clubhouse, but I'm thinking part two would be fun to show. Yeah, we got love opinions on that. Billy, your background software engineering. You're also growth marketer, product leader. What what is your question or comment for Charlie and Chris? You are a marketing APPS. Well, Christy, you're I think James gave me a little bit good I'm a software engineer, so I feel your pain on technical debt and also the difficulty to recognize it and then act upon it. It's always like you run into something where you realize you're battling more than you're actually creating, and it's really difficult for leadership to understand that. It's it's a problem that needs to be fixed, but this system still works to a certain extent, you know. So I just wanted to reinforced that. I think that that is a real problem and that it's bubbling up the marketing up where I feel like a lot of times it's manifested itself in the technical teams. Is is encouraging to hear someone say that. I guess my question is actually a little bit different than that. My question is something I've noticed lately and I'm not sure that I've not noticed in the past, but it's something that's bubbled up more frequently, is applications that are completely interdependent of each other. So I'm sure we all are implementing different tools and each one of these tools are dependent on an integration with another service, and I wonder how many tools do you run into that provide value outside of integrations in terms of just like it's just stand alone and it has some some things helping the mocking team with, but it's just not integrates to the gift full style. Yeah, exactly. So you know, clubhouse, we're on an APP right now that really does not integrate with any other services, but it provides US independent value and I don't find very many of those tools on the B tob market and so I'm really interested if y'all find any tools that you know outside of they integrate with like your primary data set. I think that that's something that's really difficult to not at least integrate with, but like is not inter dependent on sales force or is not a dependent on, you know, hub spot giving you some level of information. Like I'm just wondering if are there any tools that you've run across recently they're like, man, we get so much value out of that. But and it didn't have to talk to every tool in the world. Yeah, I Chris, if you want to jump in, I would say in all line of work, I'm sure there's there's tools out there, but there's a heavy there's a heavy need for integrations and a lot of the tools that we consult on that it's all part of the same picture, which is, you know, all integrated together and doesn't have to be like dependent on selfport data, but it could be updating selfwillt data or pushing data into cells, for so I'm struggling to think of a tool that we specifically consult on that isn't...

...tighten somehow. Yeah, I can any thoughts. The only ones I like come to mine are it's really around like building your brand or creating communication, you know, or engagement, and Charlie touched on some of those, you know, implied attribution touch points and call he called them invisible. But you know, for things like podcast, like you said, Club House or, you know, linkedin organic posts or just things that are boosting your brand, it's really hard to get that data, you know, or anything back into your system, and we wouldn't expect people to. But from actual system standpoint, especially in D to be the the full picture is is really what we want to track and we want to make sure there's no stilo tools. So all the time we do rely on integration and because we want, you know, the whole customer journey needs to make sense and and seeing all of that, having it the you know, cohesive and it's super important. So a lot of times, you know, we look to we need it to be integrated, we need to be able to send this data over to you know, even towards as they they integrate. I have some issues that some of the integration and how we get data across your accounts into it or ownership, and that causes issues. But it's a really great question because in some pieces it's there aren't really many, mainly because we need to tie these touch points together and we need that customer journey to be something that we can have a hundred percent insight into and have control over. Yeah, I guess maybe that there's tools that you know at demand marked a great market would just use independently of the marketing OPS team. But generally I think when it gets onto the marketing OPS teams table, it's like how do I integrate this into my full stat with, which is generally you know your mark the two big things you're marking automation platform and and sales force, because you want that data actionable for the sales team. You're on that data actionable for the marketing teams. So you need it in those systems to be at action on it because that's where those two teams are living. So so I think maybe it's just a consequence of our role that we what comes on to our desk. Generally it's like, okay, how do we integrate this into us that? But it doesn't mean there aren't tools out there that, it seems using independently. That makes a lot of see there's a difference between ones that integrate and then like kind of sit on top of so there's a lot of especially if you're a product let focus. There's a lot of like tools that you can and it's integrating and that point but have on your application it self that's helping, you know, it ad testing or gathering survey and sights or sending them down certain documentation path and stuff like that, where you don't need all of that data connected to your other platforms, but it is, you know, really helping as a value add for that product experience. So, billy, do we just for a clubhouse? Terms and conditions, billity. Do we have your permission to share your voice on the podcast? Absolutely awesome, and one quick comment to that. I think it's also a product of scale, right, like when you actually need a marketing ups person within a business, you're probably reaching a scale in which the integrations or the communication across different platforms is is an integral part of the strategy that you're trying to execute. Again, so that that makes sense. I've just kind of been, you know, I did it, ideating around this thing. Or there's very few products that are interdependent or do not have to integrate with everything. I think notion might be one that's kind of closest, where you can actually build a set of communication inside a tool that doesn't necessarily have to talk to other tools. So awesome. Thank you. Thanks a lot for the question, billy, my question you kind of enclosing and based on something billy just mentioned. Charlie and Chrissy, what scale or what size of a company is it typical that you would make your first marketing apps higher? That's a great question. We actually did a...

...bit of research on this a few years back and I think Chris here's the ratio was generally like in the best companies, like an eight to one, right, so one in terms of marketers to marketing ops people or wow, and I think that. So it doesn't mean that when you get to eight people you should hire one. I think the definite requirement is that if you don't have one your you should have someone on your team that is technical enough, right, because if you if you just got a team and you start implementing a tool like Marquetto and start adding you know, drifts, ex sense, you know demand, but like all of these additional tools in the stack, and that you've got that one person, like a demand gen manager, trying to manage it and they don't really have much background in that, you're going to just create just such a monster that will be and this just going to just sink and and you'll have once you do hire the marketing opps person, then they're gonna have a lot of work on their hand. So I think it's less about team size and more about kind of the complexity of your marketing and when you should hire that first person. And if you are, if you are going to implement, you know, big tools like Marquetto you need somebody knows what they do like that. COVID MND have changed that a little bit, that ratio where you have more and more your touch points are digital, you may be doing less in person event. So I think we're seeing maybe even a shift and maybe dollars that would go to someone who's usually like coordinating field events or something like that will actually go to a marketing ops person because their integral to like scaling these type of digital touchpoints out and it doesn't need that other role. I don't I think that those roles are still super important in our part should be part of the team, but I do think that like companies now are investing more in their marketing ops team as they should. Yeah, awesome, well, we are. We are right at our time for today. Charlie and Chrissy, how can folks listening on clubhouse and and BB growth stay connected with you. Yeah, well, all the usual stuff really say. We're on Linkedin. We try to add to the community that you're putting out a lot of great content. Both of you are there, so I can, I cannot reinforce that for anybody listening. If you're not already following Charlie Chrissy on Linkedin, you should be. Well, we led a lot from from you guys in the transparency that your team has on Linkedin and how much you put out in terms of like best practice is never think so thanks to that. And then we have our podcast, which is forward thinking podcast that you can find in all the poll the podcast channels and website. Just CST MARKETINGCOM love it. Wonderful. Dan. Anything before we let charline Chrissy go and close this from down? Only that, as a somebody coming from the BBC marketing side, usually smaller teams, it's making a lot of sense why sometimes struggle to scale marketing. I'm like, Oh, there's like a whole team of people in marketing ops. That usually helps with all those things that I've usually been doing it all myself. So as a marketing team of one currently and sweetfish, I feel a little bit of release and then it's not. It's not just usually one person job, but at the same time one person's can still get a lot done. It's fantastic to hear from you guys as far as what you're doing and the steps you're taking to bring clarity to add I don't know, to help marketing teams essentially flow more smoothly. Wonderful. Thank you, Charlie and Christy, for joining us. This has been fantastic. This will be live again. Are this. This is live now and club house. It'll go up on beauby growth in the next few days. So if you caught halfway through the conversation, make sure to go and subscribe to be growth listen to it there. And for all of you joining us live today, thank you all so much for being here.

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